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Charlottesville Car Crash Video

Mumbles said:
And it's very clear that they should face far harsher charges than him - if he should face any charge at all, which he should not.
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He used a club to hit a guy in the head. That happened before he was beaten, and when he was in no danger. I'm having a hard time understanding why he shouldn't be charged for that.
 
Meadmaker said:
He used a club to hit a guy in the head. That happened before he was beaten, and when he was in no danger. I'm having a hard time understanding why he shouldn't be charged for that.
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Can't help but note that one case has video evidence, and the other has...rumor.
 
Mumbles said:
Can't help but note that one case has video evidence, and the other has...rumor.
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They also went judge shopping and then magistrate shopping because no judge would file charges. That's a huge red flag.
 
Mumbles said:
Can't help but note that one case has video evidence, and the other has...rumor.
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That's not true. I've seen the video. I can't post a youtube link from work, but Deandre Harris hit that Nazi in the head with a club, and he did it before anyone else took a swing. I'll post the link from home later.


There is one thing that is unclear from the video. As the video begins, Corey Long and the Nazi are tussling over the Nazi's flag. It is unclear how that tussle started, and it is unclear whether either Mr. Long or the Nazi was in any danger at that moment. Mr. Harris claims that he was defending Mr. Long.

Mr. Harris will undoubtedly put that defense forward at (or before) his trial. If he can convince a judge and/or jury that striking the Nazi was justified, he'll win.
 
Stacko said:
They also went judge shopping and then magistrate shopping because no judge would file charges. That's a huge red flag.
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Didn't know that - but yes, that's another warning sign that this is simply an attempt to blame a victim.

Meadmaker said:
That's not true. I've seen the video. I can't post a youtube link from work, but Deandre Harris hit that Nazi in the head with a club, and he did it before anyone else took a swing. I'll post the link from home later.


There is one thing that is unclear from the video. As the video begins, Corey Long and the Nazi are tussling over the Nazi's flag. It is unclear how that tussle started, and it is unclear whether either Mr. Long or the Nazi was in any danger at that moment. Mr. Harris claims that he was defending Mr. Long.

Mr. Harris will undoubtedly put that defense forward at (or before) his trial. If he can convince a judge and/or jury that striking the Nazi was justified, he'll win.
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So...people are fighting, and Harris took a swing at a neo-nazi?

And we're supposed to believe that he deserved to be beaten with metal poles, based on this!?

Getting back to the point, it's remarkably the lengths that some people (and you, Meadmaker, have now entered into this realm - you should get out, now!) will go to in order to justify white supremacist violence. We've seen it before with police violence, but this random crap should stop.
 
Mumbles said:
So...people are fighting, and Harris took a swing at a neo-nazi?
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Is there a legal definition of "fight"? The Nazi and Corey Long each have one end of the Nazi's flag, and they are engaging in a sort of tug of war.

And we're supposed to believe that he deserved to be beaten with metal poles, based on this!?
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No, no, one thousand times no. I never said it. I never implied it. There is no way that can be inferred from what I, or the magistrate, have said.

The people who beat Deandre Harris were charged right away, because it was not justified to beat Deandre Harris.

The only question involved in this charge filed by the magistrate is whether it was justified for Deandre Harris to club the Nazi. Based on my observation of the film in which Mr. Harris is seen clubbing the Nazi, it does not appear justified, but there is some evidence missing. We have not heard any testimony other than a single comment made by Mr. Harris in a newspaper interview. (He said his friend, Corey Long, had been hit by the Nazi's flag. I think he said Mr. Long was "speared".) If any video exists that shows the start of the flag scuffle, I haven't seen it. It will be for a judge and/or jury to decide if Mr. Harris' claim to be defending Mr. Long is sufficient to justify the use of force against the Nazi. It seems to me, based on the incomplete evidence available, that Mr. Long could have simply let go of the Nazi's flag. However, if the Nazi had attacked Mr. Long with the flag, then a reasonable person might assume that Mr. Long was in danger, in which case Mr. Harris' attack on the Nazi would be justified.

I am sure that Mr. Harris will base his defense on defending his friend, and unless there is credible testimony to the contrary, there will be reasonable doubt, and he ought to go free.


The point of all this, really, is that the narrative propogated about this incident has been spun into unrecognizability. The narrative we are led to believe is that Deandre Harris was walking down the street when the Nazi marchers decided to attack, and they beat him while he lay on the ground.

What really happened is that Deandre Harris took a swing at a Nazi. A fight ensued. One of the Nazis was knocked to the ground, apparently unconscious, at which point two men came over and started beating the apparently unconscious Nazi. Meanwhile, a man took a swing at a Nazi, and then got pushed. He stumbled into Harris, who was knocked to the ground near the unconscious Nazi.

Some more Nazis now rushed to the aid of their unconscious ally. One of them ran right next to Mr. Harris, who started to get up. The Nazi kicks him as he runs past, knocking him back to the ground. A couple of other Nazis position themselves near their fallen ally, and another pair of Nazis come over and beat Deandre Harris on the ground.

All those who beat Mr. Harris have been charged. Now, Mr. Harris has been charged for swinging the club at the Nazi. To the best of my knowledge, none of the people who hit the unconscious Nazi have been charged.



Getting back to the point, it's remarkably the lengths that some people (and you, Meadmaker, have now entered into this realm - you should get out, now!) will go to in order to justify white supremacist violence. We've seen it before with police violence, but this random crap should stop.
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There is no justification for the white supremacist violence, and it is appropriate for charges to be filed. On the other hand, it is my opinion that there is no justification for the violence against the white supremacists either. At the very least, the two men who beat the Nazi on the ground should be charged. As for Mr. Harris, it also seemed to me that his attack on the Nazi is unjustified, although I would be open to contrary evidence.
 
As I said earlier, here's a link to a youtube video of Deandre Harris




The man doing the tug of war with the Nazi is Corey Long. People who followed the thread may remember him as the guy with the flamesprayer. In the video, Deandre Harris can be seen leaping forward to club the Nazi.

The Nazi with the flag is the same guy I referred to as the "unconscious Nazi" in the previous post. He is visible in other videos. He was not knocked unconscious by Deandre Harris, but by a different knock on the head from another club-wielding man.

ETA: And looking at the video, I'm not sure Harris actually hit Mr. Nazi on the head. He may have missed. Clicking on the youtube link above doesn't work for me, although following the url to youtube does.
 
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This video shows what looks like it might be the first swing in the fight, but it's too small and far away for me to tell much about it. At approximately 1:00, someone with a long pole takes a swing. I can't tell what it is or who is swinging it, though. It might be a Nazi flag. It might be the staff held by the man in the pink shirt.
 
Meadmaker said:
As I said earlier, here's a link to a youtube video of Deandre Harris

[yt snipped]

The man doing the tug of war with the Nazi is Corey Long. People who followed the thread may remember him as the guy with the flamesprayer. In the video, Deandre Harris can be seen leaping forward to club the Nazi.

The Nazi with the flag is the same guy I referred to as the "unconscious Nazi" in the previous post. He is visible in other videos. He was not knocked unconscious by Deandre Harris, but by a different knock on the head from another club-wielding man.

ETA: And looking at the video, I'm not sure Harris actually hit Mr. Nazi on the head. He may have missed. Clicking on the youtube link above doesn't work for me, although following the url to youtube does.
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I wish you wouldn't link to Nazi youtube accounts.
 
uke2se said:
I wish you wouldn't link to Nazi youtube accounts.
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Hmmm......That's a good point. It won't do you any harm to see it, but youtube is tracking things. I know after I did the searching while I was looking for the videos, I got some rather interesting "recommended for you" videos for a while.

I'll ask the mods to retroactively edit the posts to include a warning that the videos linked to are extreme right wing youtube channels.

Unfortunately, the video in them is perfectly valid and contains information relevant to understanding the events in Charlottesville. It's fair for the alt-righters to claim that the news you are hearing is not the whole story. If I could find mainstream media stories that included those clips, I would link to them, but I can't. I can find plenty of links to stories about Deandre Harris being assaulted by Nazi thugs. However, that's only part of the story.

ETA: And I don't want to alarm anyone about what they might find at the end of those links. YouTube has anti-hate speech policies, and neither the videos I linked to nor the people who posted them violate those policies. They aren't really "Nazi sites", but the are definitely fringe sorts, and might fairly be called racist or perhaps "Nazi sympathizers". They aren't the sort of people you probably want to invite to your parties, and clicking on them could skew the "recommended for you" recommendations.

It's a pity that Big Brother is watching us, but can't distinguish between people who are looking to see what "the other side" is saying, versus people who actually are on "the other side."
 
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Meadmaker said:
Hmmm......That's a good point. It won't do you any harm to see it, but youtube is tracking things. I know after I did the searching while I was looking for the videos, I got some rather interesting "recommended for you" videos for a while.

I'll ask the mods to retroactively edit the posts to include a warning that the videos linked to are extreme right wing youtube channels.

Unfortunately, the video in them is perfectly valid and contains information relevant to understanding the events in Charlottesville. It's fair for the alt-righters to claim that the news you are hearing is not the whole story. If I could find mainstream media stories that included those clips, I would link to them, but I can't. I can find plenty of links to stories about Deandre Harris being assaulted by Nazi thugs. However, that's only part of the story.
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The reason could be that you are not looking at the big picture either. What you see in the film snippet is a small interaction in a continuous event which ends in Deandre Harris being beaten with clubs while on the ground. Before that there was an altercation in which violence was initiated. It's likely that the violence has been deemed by prosecutors (and the media) to have been initiated by the Nazis, which would make Deandre Harris' actions in self defense.

You are chosing to listen to known fabricators and liars when they tell you the media is witholding information. You then go digging yourself, and you find "evidence" presented by known fabricators and liars indicating to you that the media is witholding information. I put it to you that the rational action is to not listen to the known fabricators and liars in the first place, because they are going to lie to you and fabricate evidence.
 
uke2se said:
The reason could be that you are not looking at the big picture either. What you see in the film snippet is a small interaction in a continuous event which ends in Deandre Harris being beaten with clubs while on the ground. Before that there was an altercation in which violence was initiated. It's likely that the violence has been deemed by prosecutors (and the media) to have been initiated by the Nazis, which would make Deandre Harris' actions in self defense.

You are chosing to listen to known fabricators and liars when they tell you the media is witholding information. You then go digging yourself, and you find "evidence" presented by known fabricators and liars indicating to you that the media is witholding information. I put it to you that the rational action is to not listen to the known fabricators and liars in the first place, because they are going to lie to you and fabricate evidence.
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What has been fabricated in this instance?

Raise your discourse above claiming "fake news" please.

Did you miss the part where he concludes that enough reasonable doubt exists that Mr. Harris should be acquited?

I think there's a good deal of blindness in this discussion alright.

"The enemy of my enemy is my friend" doesn't mean lay down your life, ride till we die, see/hear/speak no evil, put my reputation on the line and suspend rationality kind of friends.

Sent from my SM-J327P using Tapatalk
 
Delphic Oracle said:
What has been fabricated in this instance?
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Possibly creatively edited videos.

Delphic Oracle said:
Raise your discourse above claiming "fake news" please.

Did you miss the part where he concludes that enough reasonable doubt exists that Mr. Harris should be acquited?

I think there's a good deal of blindness in this discussion alright.

"The enemy of my enemy is my friend" doesn't mean lay down your life, ride till we die, see/hear/speak no evil, put my reputation on the line and suspend rationality kind of friends.

Sent from my SM-J327P using Tapatalk
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Yes, the blindness is historical blindness. We know what kind of people the Nazis are. Who in their right mind would listen to a word they say?
 
I have compared a variety of different videos from a variety of different sources. They are all consistent, although creative editing from all sides makes it difficult to determine exactly what is going on. I'm confident that the general description I have given of the parking garage brawl is accurate.

The videos are cell phone or other unprofessional videos posted to youtube, so it is sometimes difficult to pick out details. Was the Nazi on the ground actually unconscious, or is he simply lying still on the ground to cover up? Did Deandre Harris actually hit the Nazi with the club, or did he swing and miss? Is the Nazi trying to wrest control of the flag from Corey Long, or is he using it aggressively? These are details I cannot determine from the video posted. And of course, I haven't seen any video of the beginning of the flag altercation at all.

Nevertheless, on the "big picture" points, I'm pretty confident I have it right. Somehow, a struggle began between Corey Long and one of the Nazis. Deandre Harris was not part of that altercation, but became involved when he swung a club at the Nazi. Several people joined in the fray, and a Nazi and Deandre Harris ended up on the ground, being beaten.

Even that much was hard to piece through from the various videos, because each side loved to post only those portions of the videos that supported their favorite narrative, or the quality wasn't very good. The ones that actually had narration and pointed out relevant details were all agenda driven and biased, from both left and right.
 
Meadmaker said:
I have compared a variety of different videos from a variety of different sources. They are all consistent, although creative editing from all sides makes it difficult to determine exactly what is going on. I'm confident that the general description I have given of the parking garage brawl is accurate.

The videos are cell phone or other unprofessional videos posted to youtube, so it is sometimes difficult to pick out details. Was the Nazi on the ground actually unconscious, or is he simply lying still on the ground to cover up? Did Deandre Harris actually hit the Nazi with the club, or did he swing and miss? Is the Nazi trying to wrest control of the flag from Corey Long, or is he using it aggressively? These are details I cannot determine from the video posted. And of course, I haven't seen any video of the beginning of the flag altercation at all.

Nevertheless, on the "big picture" points, I'm pretty confident I have it right. Somehow, a struggle began between Corey Long and one of the Nazis. Deandre Harris was not part of that altercation, but became involved when he swung a club at the Nazi. Several people joined in the fray, and a Nazi and Deandre Harris ended up on the ground, being beaten.

Even that much was hard to piece through from the various videos, because each side loved to post only those portions of the videos that supported their favorite narrative, or the quality wasn't very good. The ones that actually had narration and pointed out relevant details were all agenda driven and biased, from both left and right.
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And yet you are convinced the Nazis are right to say that the media doesn't give the whole picture?
 
uke2se said:
And yet you are convinced the Nazis are right to say that the media doesn't give the whole picture?
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A person can believe the media isn't giving the whole picture independently of what Nazis believe. Nazis probably largely believe breathing is useful for staying alive.

Do you agree with the Nazis?(!)

Why is biased presentation or going light on the details such a far-fetched claim? Is this out of step with the way they do just about everything else?
 
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Mumbles said:
Yes, there's the discussion of the scary black man.

Which does not at all justify him being beaten with poles later.
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Was he wearing a polo shirt? Was he carrying a tiki torch? Then how scary could he have been?

The BLM and ANTIFA started all the violence at Charlottesville. That "DeAndre" Spook included.
 
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