Trump and NFL boycott

[The Great Zaganza]

I started a discussion on virtue signaling and I get your point, but I think Pence was counterprotesting. Not thrilled to see him do it on the taxpayers' dime, but I'm willing to think that protesting is not virtue signaling (partly because I'm still unconvinced that virtue signaling is a useful allegation).

he is the friggin VP, not an activist. His administration has all the power, not the few NFL players.
He doesn't get to protest, counter or otherwise. He only can get protested against.

Or do you think it would make sense for Jeff Bezos to protest against a Mom&Pop grocery store?


No, this was just virtue signalling both to Trump and his base, the support of which Pence might need someday.

 

[WilliamSeger]

Again, so long as his discretionary travel spending is in line with the expectations of the office what does it matter? What difference if he uses it for this stunt or for a vacation? None, really. If he wants to use it for political stunts rather than to go skiing, it's no skin off my back. Or yours.

The main difference is that this particular stunt was entirely in the service of Trump's continued abhorrent campaign of demagoguery, a conscious attempt to deepen a cultural divide by inflaming passions on both sides in hopes of ending up with the bigger half. And it was a transparent attempt to distract from Trump's abject failures as a president by currying favor among those who are indifferent to racial injustice, whether it's because they are actually racists or they are merely "conservatives" who lack any empathy for anyone other than themselves. And in Pence's case, it was another demonstration that he is a posturing, sanctimonious pseudo-Christian.

You don't see any difference between that and taking a vacation?

Trump and his administration become more pathetic with each passing week, and so do his supporters and apologists.

 

[Mumbles]

Why? Because of the word "should"?

There are hard and soft uses of "should", that is, the should of obligation and the should of suggestion. I do believe that when it's part of the U.S. code, context requires we read it as the obligatory should.

They already have another word for that it's "shall".

And in any case, since these paid performances often feature the flag held horizontally over the fiend and not flying free anyway, you're simply proclaiming the entire paid ceremony to be a sham.

Which it is, in my opinion, but that's another matter.

 

[phiwum]

The flag is being used as an excuse to persecute protestors.

No, I think this is uncharitable. What's happening is that some folks think that the flag is an important symbol, one that should be respected according to the conventions that the nation has chosen to respect it. And the protestors are obviously not acting according to those principles.

Now, some (maybe most?) of those who oppose kneeling don't give much care to the issue at hand, police violence directed at African-Americans. But I'd just as soon take them at their word about respect for the flag, and counter-argue that in fact, as protests go, this is about as respectful as it bloody well gets. If they want to make it about respect, let's take them at that word.

Curiously, a man stopped me in the convenience store today to ask if I am a veteran (I'm not, I just have reached the age that crappy haircuts seem easier). His reason for asking was to point out that he served in Vietnam and these kneeling protestors bothered him considerably. To be honest, I wasn't keen on having this conversation with a stranger who just happened to guess (badly) that I was a veteran. But I believed him. I think that failure to stand for the flag he (metaphorically, to be sure) fought for bothered him.

Different folks, different values.

 

[phiwum]

They already have another word for that it's "shall".

And in any case, since these paid performances often feature the flag held horizontally over the fiend and not flying free anyway, you're simply proclaiming the entire paid ceremony to be a sham.

Which it is, in my opinion, but that's another matter.

Can you point to any court interpretation that makes a difference between "should" and "shall"? I think the two are used interchangeably, but again I could be wrong.

If you want to call the honoring of the flag at sports events a sham, well, I won't argue with you. I think that it matters to a lot of folk, but it's also kinda showy and frankly I agree that so many of the people who aim to be patriotic don't know a thing about how the flag ought to be respected, per our code. Trump practically humped the thing, for goodness sake.

 

[thaiboxerken]

I believe those outraged about the kneeling are trying to weaponize patriotism because of what the protest is about. These are the same jerks that say "all lives matter" to BLM protests. They complain that the parading protests are blocking traffic. They complain when protesters stand up in protest, when they sit down in protest, and when they kneel in protest. In short, they hate the protest and are just using the flag to focus their hate.

I'm a veteran and I see no disrespect given from these silent, kneeling protests. In fact, I find it to be an effective protest tactic.

 

[uke2se]

I believe those outraged about the kneeling are trying to weaponize patriotism because of what the protest is about. These are the same jerks that say "all lives matter" to BLM protests. They complain that the parading protests are blocking traffic. They complain when protesters stand up in protest, when they sit down in protest, and when they kneel in protest. In short, they hate the protest and are just using the flag to focus their hate.

I'm a veteran and I see no disrespect given from these silent, kneeling protests. In fact, I find it to be an effective protest tactic.

Quite obviously it's effective. Everyone's talking about it. I think that irritates the detractors even more.

 

[Ziggurat]

The main difference is that this particular stunt was entirely in the service of Trump's continued abhorrent campaign of demagoguery, a conscience attempt to deepen a cultural divide by inflaming passions on both sides in hopes of ending up with the bigger half. And it was a transparent attempt to distract from Trump's abject failures as a president by currying favor among those who are indifferent to racial injustice, whether it's because they are actually racists or they are merely "conservatives" who lack any empathy for anyone other than themselves. And in Pence's case, it was another demonstration that he is a posturing, sanctimonious pseudo-Christian.

You don't see any difference between that and taking a vacation?

There's no budgetary difference, no. And that was the specific complaint I was addressing, which is distinct from your complaint.

Trump and his administration become more pathetic with each passing week, and so do his supporters and apologists.

Yet he is blessed by his choice of critics and opponents, who are driven to insanity and absurdity by mere tweets. It's almost as if they want him to win in 2020.

 

[phiwum]

I believe those outraged about the kneeling are trying to weaponize patriotism because of what the protest is about. These are the same jerks that say "all lives matter" to BLM protests. They complain that the parading protests are blocking traffic. They complain when protesters stand up in protest, when they sit down in protest, and when they kneel in protest. In short, they hate the protest and are just using the flag to focus their hate.

I'm a veteran and I see no disrespect given from these silent, kneeling protests. In fact, I find it to be an effective protest tactic.

You know, I'm with you on most of these points, aside from blocking traffic on an interstate. That's a really stupid way to generate support. (Blocking traffic by marching on a city street is not the same thing, obviously.)

Are the folks against kneeling racist? Surely, some percentage of them are and it's probably a larger percentage than the general population. Should we dismiss them because they're racist? No. We should address their arguments and point out that kneeling isn't really a position of disrespect, that the issues driving the kneelers matter and that society can handle this sort of simple dissension.

 

[phiwum]

Yet he is blessed by his choice of critics and opponents, who are driven to insanity and absurdity by mere tweets. It's almost as if they want him to win in 2020.

Yes, it's clear that criticizing a deranged man for his embarrassing rants as president of the United States is much more regrettable than pretending that it is more or less normal. I mean, he's only the President, right? Let him blow off some steam.

Bob Corker is just a *****.

ETA: Can I just point out that it's charming to blame the Democrats on Trump, rather than those who voted for him (and, well, Trump). What the hell are you trying to say here? That the Dems are smarter than you and should have saved you for this stupid vote? (Not directed to Zig personally, since of course I have no idea who he voted for.)

 

[Mumbles]

Can you point to any court interpretation that makes a difference between "should" and "shall"? I think the two are used interchangeably, but again I could be wrong.

No need for a court - in military documents at least, this is the defined difference between "should" and "shall" - a standard set by the people writing the documents.

Not that this matters, the only applicable ruling has found any such law to be unconstitutional.

If you want to call the honoring of the flag at sports events a sham, well, I won't argue with you. I think that it matters to a lot of folk, but it's also kinda showy and frankly I agree that so many of the people who aim to be patriotic don't know a thing about how the flag ought to be respected, per our code. Trump practically humped the thing, for goodness sake.

I'm not calling it a sham out of disrespect to anyone - except for the people that decided to give and accept payments to hold these ceremonies. Frankly, I find the entire thing to be a mockery of actual patriotism precisely because the military pays sports leagues to do them.

 

[Shalamar]

Yes, it's clear that criticizing a deranged man for his embarrassing rants as president of the United States is much more regrettable than pretending that it is more or less normal. I mean, he's only the President, right? Let him blow off some steam.

Bob Corker is just a *****.

ETA: Can I just point out that it's charming to blame the Democrats on Trump, rather than those who voted for him (and, well, Trump). What the hell are you trying to say here? That the Dems are smarter than you and should have saved you for this stupid vote? (Not directed to Zig personally, since of course I have no idea who he voted for.)

The issue is that people are focusing on the wrong thing. For Republicans and hard conservatives, they don't care that Trump is an idiot. All they are about is that 'leftists' and Democrats are upset by it. It's not about the person. It's about winning.

 

[Ziggurat]

Yes, it's clear that criticizing a deranged man for his embarrassing rants as president of the United States is much more regrettable than pretending that it is more or less normal. I mean, he's only the President, right? Let him blow off some steam.

Sigh.

I wish I didn't have to spell out stuff like this, but I guess this being the politics forum, apparently I have to. When I criticize Trump's critics as being unhinged, that's not a categorical description of every single critic or every single criticism. It's directed at stuff like claiming that Pence walking out of a baseball game is an act of oppression. When I point this out, nobody actually defends that claim, instead they get incensed that I'm not joining them to attack Trump with whatever other accusations they can think of.

ETA: Can I just point out that it's charming to blame the Democrats on Trump, rather than those who voted for him (and, well, Trump). What the hell are you trying to say here? That the Dems are smarter than you and should have saved you for this stupid vote? (Not directed to Zig personally, since of course I have no idea who he voted for.)

What I'm saying is that if Dems actually want to defeat Trump, they need to fundamentally change their tactics. What they're doing didn't work in 2016, but they haven't changed their approach. You're familiar with that joke about the definition of insanity, right?

 

[phiwum]

The issue is that people are focusing on the wrong thing. For Republicans and hard conservatives, they don't care that Trump is an idiot. All they are about is that 'leftists' and Democrats are upset by it. It's not about the person. It's about winning.

It is about the person for principled conservatives and there are such folk.

 

[phiwum]

Sigh.

I wish I didn't have to spell out stuff like this, but I guess this being the politics forum, apparently I have to. When I criticize Trump's critics as being unhinged, that's not a categorical description of every single critic or every single criticism. It's directed at stuff like claiming that Pence walking out of a baseball game is an act of oppression. When I point this out, nobody actually defends that claim, instead they get incensed that I'm not joining them to attack Trump with whatever other accusations they can think of.

It was not an act of oppression. That's over the top nonsense. Fair enough?

What I'm saying is that if Dems actually want to defeat Trump, they need to fundamentally change their tactics. What they're doing didn't work in 2016, but they haven't changed their approach. You're familiar with that joke about the definition of insanity, right?

I don't pretend to know how Trump got elected or how Dems ought to change their message. I do know that criticizing the excesses of Trump is perfectly reasonable, though not likely to change the opinions of real Trump supporters, who seem to like his excesses.

 

[Ziggurat]

It was not an act of oppression. That's over the top nonsense. Fair enough?

Fair enough. And in the interest of comity, I will say that Pence's walkout qualifies as virtue signalling.

 

[Arcade22]

After the game, 49ers safety Eric Reid took issue with Pence's motives for leaving, pondering whether the whole thing was just "a PR stunt."

"He knew our team has had the most players protest. He knew that we were probably going to do it again," Reid said, according to a video from Jennifer Lee Chan, a reporter for NinersNation.com. "This is what systemic oppression looks like. A man with power comes to the game, tweets a couple of things out and leaves the game with an attempt to thwart our efforts."

Reid also questioned the last time the vice president attended an NFL game and referenced the fact that the photo Pence tweeted of him and his wife in Colts gear appears to be from three years ago.

http://www.politico.com/story/2017/10/08/pence-nfl-game-anthem-protest-243583

Divider in chief and his toady. Disgusting behavior.

 

[Spindrift]

Trump is winning. For him this has nothing to do with patriotism, protests or disrespecting the flag. This is all about revenge for the NFL not letting him in to their little club. Trump never forgets, this is his payback for a snub from over 30 years ago.

 

[johnny karate]

Yet he is blessed by his choice of critics and opponents, who are driven to insanity and absurdity by mere tweets. It's almost as if they want him to win in 2020.

Trump is just some random guy sending out mere tweets, and his critics are insane.

Yeah, that's an evenhanded assessment.

 

[phiwum]

Fair enough. And in the interest of comity, I will say that Pence's walkout qualifies as virtue signalling.

Not quite what I would say, but thanks anyway.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk