Spain suppressing Catalan Indyref

[Damien Evans]

It has been reported that the 100,000 people crowd at a Real Madrid game waved Spanish flags and called for national unity. Spaniards are reluctant to give Catalans their independence. It is not only a thing of the political elite, it is quite much a national attitude. With exceptions, but these exceptions appear to be a minority. So there will be a remarkable confrontation of willpower, the majority of Spaniards vs. Catalans.

That doesn't prove much about Spain as a whole, of course Royal Madrid fans from the heart of Castille don't want to see Spain break up. I doubt you'd see the same show in Vitoria-Gasteiz.

 

[Abooga]

Which part of this account of Franco's policy do you regard as mythical?

I refer to the extended belief that Catalan and Basque were banned. Most of my friends in the Basque Country believe it. I had to show a friend of mine my granpa´s collection of magazines published in Basque in the fifties. He wouldn´t believe they even existed. I´m not saying Basque or Catalan weren´t sometimes frowned upon, and they weren´t taught in school, etc. (but neither before Franco. Only Catalan wast taught in School briefly during the Republic). Basque and Catalan nationalism have distorted the truth and created their own mythology, for their own interests. Like the supposed conquest of Catalunya and the Basque Country by Spain, which never happened, but exists in the psyche of many people here.

 

[Abooga]

Actually, 41%:


Calling that a coup is a stretch. It indicates that there might be a majority in favour of independence. I hasten to add that I think that just a simple majority in favour of independence is a very small basis for that.

37.3%, so yes, I was a bit off, but then a lot of people seem to have voted twice (villages of 500 with 1000 results etc), so it´s a piece of **** referendum, whichever way you look at it. Should they repeat it? I don´t see why not, but with a near 50% support I don´t see the urgency.

 

[Craig B]

I refer to the extended belief that Catalan and Basque were banned. Most of my friends in the Basque Country believe it. I had to show a friend of mine my granpa´s collection of magazines published in Basque in the fifties. He wouldn´t believe they even existed. I´m not saying Basque or Catalan weren´t sometimes frowned upon, and they weren´t taught in school, etc. (but neither before Franco. Only Catalan wast taught in School briefly during the Republic). Basque and Catalan nationalism have distorted the truth and created their own mythology, for their own interests. Like the supposed conquest of Catalunya and the Basque Country by Spain, which never happened, but exists in the psyche of many people here.

Franco's suppression of these minority languages didn't extend to the banning of private use of them in people's homes. But the languages were the subject of serious discrimination and public suppression.

Catalunya was deprived of a Parliament after a siege and war in 1714. Thereafter Castilian institutions were imposed on it.

A proposed referendum organised by an elected regional parliament is not a "putsch".

Franco did indeed oppress Catalans (and others) culturally. He stifled all democracy. He did perform a putsch, which the Generalitat has not done.

If anyone says Franco forbade people to speak Catalan at home, that person is mistaken. But I have never said that. Argue with someone who does.

Franco committed crimes in abundance, and you are striving to find ways of excusing him. Why on Earth are you doing that? Is it a religious thing, or what? Please explain.

 

[Abooga]

Franco's suppression of these minority languages didn't extend to the banning of private use of them in people's homes. But the languages were the subject of serious discrimination and public suppression.

Catalunya was deprived of a Parliament after a siege and war in 1714. Thereafter Castilian institutions were imposed on it.

A proposed referendum organised by an elected regional parliament is not a "putsch".

Franco did indeed oppress Catalans (and others) culturally. He stifled all democracy. He did perform a putsch, which the Generalitat has not done.

If anyone says Franco forbade people to speak Catalan at home, that person is mistaken. But I have never said that. Argue with someone who does.

Franco committed crimes in abundance, and you are striving to find ways of excusing him. Why on Earth are you doing that? Is it a religious thing, or what? Please explain.

What? I´m not excusing Franco! May he rot in hell! But lying solves nothing, and some nationalists are using lies and distortions. That´s all I´m saying.

 

[Craig B]

What? I´m not excusing Franco! May he rot in hell! But lying solves nothing, and some nationalists are using lies and distortions. That´s all I´m saying.

Thank you. I am reassured by that.

It must of course be true that some nationalists are using lies and distortions, because these are common political activities. Some centralists are using them too, we may have no doubt. But what you wrote previously was this:

Basque and Catalan nationalism have distorted the truth and created their own mythology, for their own interests​

which is a much more radical statement.

 

[ddt]

37.3%,

No, 97.10% * 42.58% = 41.35%.

so yes, I was a bit off,

30% vs. 41% is more than "a bit off".

but then a lot of people seem to have voted twice (villages of 500 with 1000 results etc),

[ citation required ]

so it´s a piece of **** referendum, whichever way you look at it. Should they repeat it? I don´t see why not, but with a near 50% support I don´t see the urgency.

It does raise the question whether there's a majority for independence - that's not just a hypothetical. As to urgency, first of all it's needed that parties cool down. Felipe's speech only threw more flames on the fire, that didn't sound at all like a king who actually embraces all his citizens, more like his 16th Century namesake.

 

[Craig B]

It has been suggested that the experience so far has been a bit like Ireland 1916, where UK brutalities served to increase the support for independence, not a majority sentiment, as far as is believed, at Easter 1916.

Will the next step be a General Election? This clarified the issue of support for independence in Ireland. Could a similar exercise help to resolve the Catalan constitutional issue? The Spanish equivalent of the Black and Tans^WP must be kept well away from the process, needless to say.

 

[Abooga]

Thank you. I am reassured by that.

It must of course be true that some nationalists are using lies and distortions, because these are common political activities. Some centralists are using them too, we may have no doubt. But what you wrote previously was this:

Basque and Catalan nationalism have distorted the truth and created their own mythology, for their own interests​

which is a much more radical statement.

Centralists are also nationalists. I despise them all. However, living in the Basque Country I´m more exposed to the BS of the local fanatics.

This issue wouldn´t such a problem if people didn´t have such religious feelings towards their idea of the "nation" and would be more pragmatic. Spaniards with "the unity of Spain" and Catalans with the "unity of Catalunya", because have no doubt that if one of the Catalan provinces wanted to seceed from "New Catalunya", they would be proclaiming the sanctity of the unity of Catalunya.

 

[Craig B]

Centralists are also nationalists. I despise them all. However, living in the Basque Country I´m more exposed to the BS of the local fanatics.

This issue wouldn´t such a problem if people didn´t have such religious feelings towards their idea of the "nation" and would be more pragmatic. Spaniards with "the unity of Spain" and Catalans with the "unity of Catalunya", because have no doubt that if one of the Catalan provinces wanted to seceed from "New Catalunya", they would be proclaiming the sanctity of the unity of Catalunya.

As a yes supporter in the 2014 Scottish Indyref I'm familiar with that argument.

I reply as I did then. Please leave that issue for an independent Scotland to deal with. During the Union, there was an official definition of the area included in Scotland, agreed by all. If it hadn't been satisfactory, Westminster had 290 years to amend it, and did not. Now Westminster is worried about the integrity of this area? Please be at ease. If any problems arise following independence, they will be dealt with through democratic consensus.

But none have appeared up to now. Since the autonomous parliament has been in existence, no Scottish region has renounced that Parliament, and asked for the return of pre-1997 Westminster centralism.

 

[dudalb]

Centralists are also nationalists. I despise them all. However, living in the Basque Country I´m more exposed to the BS of the local fanatics.

This issue wouldn´t such a problem if people didn´t have such religious feelings towards their idea of the "nation" and would be more pragmatic. Spaniards with "the unity of Spain" and Catalans with the "unity of Catalunya", because have no doubt that if one of the Catalan provinces wanted to seceed from "New Catalunya", they would be proclaiming the sanctity of the unity of Catalunya.

And what, pray tell, would you replace the central government of Spain with.
?
And Patriotism is not going away any time soon.

I can't figure out what you want.


And do you consider the UK a "fake democracy" because it has a Monarch?

 

[McHrozni]

A proposed referendum organised by an elected regional parliament is not a "putsch".

Not by itself, no. This is not all that happened however.

But a carrying out such a referendum, with the full knowledge you're violating the constitution, violating your own rulebooks in the process, ignoring the opposition who is telling you not to do it and promising to declare independence within 48 hours of a plurality yes vote, as the Catalan authorities have all done, amounts to a putsch.

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/putsch

McHrozni

 

[Craig B]

Not by itself, no. This is not all that happened however.

But a carrying out such a referendum, with the full knowledge you're violating the constitution, violating your own rulebooks in the process, ignoring the opposition who is telling you not to do it and promising to declare independence within 48 hours of a plurality yes vote, as the Catalan authorities have all done, amounts to a putsch.

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/putsch

McHrozni

a plotted revolt or attempt to overthrow a government, especially one that depends upon suddenness and speed.​

Nonsense, even by your dictionary definition. It was not "plotted", was not an "attempt to overthrow a government", was not a "revolt", was not "sudden" and did not depend on "speed". Total definition fail.

Franco tried to take power through a putsch in 1936. He attempted to overthrow the Republic. The Catalan experience has been a completely different thing: a measured electoral process of secession by a region of a state. No plot, no tevolt, no attempt to overthrow any government, nothing "sudden". It's been openly contemplated for many years, and has even been tested in a previous referendum. Think Norway, or Slovakia or Slovenia, or something even more protracted and public. You're describing Franco. Different thing. Nonsense. #Sad.

 

[Abooga]

Please leave that issue for an independent Scotland to deal with.

No, I can´t leave it. I live in the Basque Country and I can´t ignore that the local nationalists who are so against Spanish nationalists would behave in a similar way if they obtained their own state. For example in Alava, the southern province of the BC, independentistm is very low (16%) so if the BC secceeded it is not unthinkable that they may want to go back to Spain. Do we have to wait until the Basque State is a reality to ask whether they´d be allowed to leave? Seriously?

What I mean is, what is the principle that we´d be applying here, that any region whose population democratically decides it can obtain independence? That´s the meme that Catalans are repeating lately, but when pushed, I´ve found that they say only a proper "nation" can decide such thing. But what is a nation? Who decides it? Wasn´t it just "democracy"? Now it´s something else too? It just sounds like they´re using the same arguments as the ones proclaiming the unity of the nation of Spain...

 

[McHrozni]

a plotted revolt or attempt to overthrow a government, especially one that depends upon suddenness and speed.​

Nonsense, even by your dictionary definition. It was not "plotted", was not an "attempt to overthrow a government", was not a "revolt", was not "sudden" and did not depend on "speed". Total definition fail.

If it wasn't plotted, was it random or something? It sought to replace the legal government of Catalonia with something they chose for themselves, how do you call that if not an overthrow? Sudden and speed are both present and I made a point to show them in the quote.

The only thing you can take issue with is a revolt. The pictures of the event do bear considerable resemblance to a revolt.

But go ahead, continue to assert nonsense if you want

McHrozni

 

[Architect]

I don't think that it's Craig who is spouting nonsense here.

 

[Craig B]

No, I can´t leave it. I live in the Basque Country and I can´t ignore that the local nationalists who are so against Spanish nationalists would behave in a similar way if they obtained their own state. For example in Alava, the southern province of the BC, independentistm is very low (16%) so if the BC secceeded it is not unthinkable that they may want to go back to Spain. Do we have to wait until the Basque State is a reality to ask whether they´d be allowed to leave? Seriously?

What I mean is, what is the principle that we´d be applying here, that any region whose population democratically decides it can obtain independence? That´s the meme that Catalans are repeating lately, but when pushed, I´ve found that they say only a proper "nation" can decide such thing. But what is a nation? Who decides it? Wasn´t it just "democracy"? Now it´s something else too? It just sounds like they´re using the same arguments as the ones proclaiming the unity of the nation of Spain...

The Spanish unitary state has been defining the constituent parts of Catalonia since 1714. And its king was previously doing so in the same monarchical union. The British state has defined Scotland by Act of Parliament since 1707. And before that for nearly another century was in monarchical union. These states have had three hundred years of political control over the territories of the dependent regions.

Now there is a possibility of loss of central parliamentary rule, so they start worrying about what would happen if a bit of Scotland or of Catalonia wanted to break away from these countries. Well, in that event - and there is no sign of it - I hope the smaller countries would handle the matter peacefully and democratically.

In Scotland and Catalonia approximately half the people want independence and half don't. But nobody is demanding partition. The separatists aren't. The unionists aren't. The Central governments in Westminster and Madrid aren't. No part of Scotland or Catalonia is seeking it. And if in future Lerwick or Girona raises the question, that will be a matter for democratic administrations Edinburgh or Barcelona, and for the local people, not for riot police and arrest warrants, I hope. So be at ease as far as this issue is concerned.

However, it is common for Empires to impose partition on absconding provinces. To take the UK: it partitioned Ireland, Palestine, India. France partitioned Indo China, and was contemplating the same fate for Algeria. An old imperial strategy.

 

[Craig B]

If it wasn't plotted, was it random or something?

No it was the outcome of a public political process, not a plot.

It sought to replace the legal government of Catalonia with something they chose for themselves, how do you call that if not an overthrow?

Go, on. You're pulling my leg, aren't you? This is pure satire. If it is unintentional on your part, it is an absolute gem, which I will keep and treasure forever.

 

[Abooga]

T Well, in that event - and there is no sign of it - I hope the smaller countries would handle the matter peacefully and democratically.

Of course there is sign of it. In the Basque Country, the exiting of Alava wouldn´t be too surprising, there have been voices that warned about it. In Catalonia, at the moment it doesn´t seem completely serious, but if the hypothetical indy Catalonia´s economy went bad, it could well become a real thing:
http://www.bcnisnotcat.es/ Here they use the exact same arguments that Catalan secesionists use, in this case to ask for Barcelona´s independence.
There are also towns near the border of Spain that have said they´d ask to be out of Catalonia, and Aran, for whom there is provissions in the new Catalan constitution, having been recognised as a historical territory or whatever. Which makes me think those not recognised by the new Catalan constitution would find their democratic aspirations crushed by the Catalan state, exactly like Spain is doing right now. Because is it democracy or is it history what decides this? I ask again...

 

[McHrozni]

No it was the outcome of a public political process, not a plot.

In the same sense as Julius Caesars' crossing of the Rubicon was a public plitical process, yeah.

Go, on. You're pulling my leg, aren't you? This is pure satire. If it is unintentional on your part, it is an absolute gem, which I will keep and treasure forever.

Treasure it all you want, but if you're going to claim to be wrong you'll need to explain and provide evidence for who would lead the newly independent Catalonia if their independence guys had their way and that it wouldn't be them.

I wish you good luck in your quest.

McHrozni