Spain suppressing Catalan Indyref

[quadraginta]

Originally Posted by Architect
Quote doesn't seem to be working for me on Firefox, so excuse me breaking ceonvention.

It works with my firefox...

Firefox, for me at any rate, and I suspect this is what Architect is talking about, seems to erratically have some problem with the forum "Quote" function. This post of yours is an example. I couldn't quote it with the "quote" function.

It doesn't happen when I try the same post with other browsers like Chrome, but I likes me my Firefox so I put up with it.

It seems to be triggered by certain control characters, but I haven't been able to pin down any consistent bad actors. It never happens with a post free of web page links or extended alphanumeric characters.

It doesn't seem to be add-on related.

 

[Oystein]

The long google translation that Abooga posted errs in one important respect: neither recognition nor UN membership are required for a polity to be a state. If the EU were to negotiate and enter int treaties with a Catalonian government representing a defined territory and population, than this act would constitute all the evidence for statehood you'll ever need, regardless of outside recognition or UN membership.

Of course, that is not going to happen if Spain and, say, France don't want to, regardless of Frances status as veto power in the UNSC.

Sent from mobile phone through Tapatalk

 

[McHrozni]

Dear me. Stalin also used to "like to think" evil foreigners had a hand in financing people for nefarious purposes. Like you he adduced no valid evidence, but at least he had torture chambers in which appropriate "confessions" could be fabricated. Do you even have that? Or are we simply to be told what you "like to think"?

I think I answered that in the initial post.

It would be par for the course for Putin. He supports and is supported by pretty much every despicable party in Europe already and these Catalan independence leaders fit the bill of Russian stooges perfectly.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/europe-s-far-right-enjoys-backing-russia-s-putin-n718926

I would be shocked if FSB hadn't offered them help yet to be honest. The question should be whether they accepted it or not.

McHrozni

 

[Craig B]

I think I answered that in the initial post.

It would be par for the course for Putin. He supports and is supported by pretty much every despicable party in Europe already and these Catalan independence leaders fit the bill of Russian stooges perfectly.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/europe-s-far-right-enjoys-backing-russia-s-putin-n718926

I would be shocked if FSB hadn't offered them help yet to be honest. The question should be whether they accepted it or not.

Stalin also liked to think that his victims fit the bill of fascist imperialist stooges perfectly, and he had their confessions to prove it. What you got?

Well, maybe the accused didn't accept Nazi gold, but it was "objectively" the same as if they did, so they got nine grams of lead in their dome, once they had revealed the names of their accomplices.

After all, Stalin would have been shocked, to be honest, if his political rivals hadn't been offered help by the Nazis. They were despicable stooges anyway; so what the hell, better bump them off. That's what Uncle Joe liked to think.

 

[Rolfe]

Firefox, for me at any rate, and I suspect this is what Architect is talking about, seems to erratically have some problem with the forum "Quote" function. This post of yours is an example. I couldn't quote it with the "quote" function.

It doesn't happen when I try the same post with other browsers like Chrome, but I likes me my Firefox so I put up with it.

It seems to be triggered by certain control characters, but I haven't been able to pin down any consistent bad actors. It never happens with a post free of web page links or extended alphanumeric characters.

It doesn't seem to be add-on related.

I have this problem too but it's infrequent so I work round it. I just copy the post and quote it manually. It's sometimes an issue with the edit function as well but again I can manually copy the post and paste it into the edit box, then edit it.

I didn't realise there were specific features of particular posts that were causing the issue.

 

[ddt]

This is a real issue. Yugoslavia originated from slavs gaining independence from the auto-hungrian and ottoman empires (cf Kurdistan) this independent country split up.

I'm now piqued to know what a "auto-hungrian empire" is. Is it an empire that gets hungry by itself?

More importantly, Serbia (and Montenegro) acquired independence from an actual power-wielding empire, while Macedonia was conquered by Serbia in the two Balkan wars, and Slovenia, Croatia, and Bosnia-Herzegovina emerged as parts from the collapsing Austro-Hungarian Empire. Serbia used this to demand a leadership role within Yugoslavia, thus exacerbating tensions arising from other sources.

How unitary do modern countries need to be? Look at this map of the Netherlands and Belgium!
Parts of Belgium are inside parts of the Netherlands inside Belgium.
http://www.exclave.eu/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=4&Itemid=10

I'm really at a loss what the silly enclaves and exclaves in a small Dutch/Belgian town have to do with this. Yes, the issue goes back to ca. 1200 and has never been solved, and with the Benelux and the EU there is not really a problem anymore to solve.

Part of Catalan is entirely within France.
Certainly what is modern Catalan territory is Historically the Kingdom of Aragon, only a small part is historically the County of Catalonia. I find it hard to find a reference to an independent Catalan state in history, it seems principally to have been part of either the kingdom of the Franks or Aragon.

Maybe look better?
County of Barcelona:

The County of Barcelona (Latin: Comitatus Barcinonensis) was originally a frontier region under the rule of the Carolingian dynasty. By the end of the 10th century, the Counts of Barcelona were de facto independent, hereditary rulers in constant warfare with the Islamic caliphate of Córdoba and its successor states. The counts, through marriage alliances and treaties, acquired the other Catalan counties and extended their influence along Occitania. Barcelona formed the nucleus of the emergent Principality of Catalonia.

Principality of Catalonia:

The Principality of Catalonia (Catalan: Principat de Catalunya, Latin: Principatus Cathaloniæ, Occitan: Principautat de Catalonha, Spanish: Principado de Cataluña), is a historic territory and a medieval and early modern political entity and state in the northeastern Iberian Peninsula, mostly in Spain, with an adjoining portion in southern France.

That there has never been an independent nation state of Catalan

False. BTW, "nation state" is a bit of an anachronism in this context. That concept was only developed in the 19th century.

does not mean that if there is a self defined Catalan ethnic group they should not be allowed to become a nation. However, there is no longer the need for such a nation to be in continuity, each household or community can decide on remaining part of Spain or becoming part of the new nation. This actually has an advantage for the independence campaign as it makes it difficult for the EU to effectively exclude the new state from the EU.

The Catalans are a nation. Time and again, I'm appalled at the sloppy use of words like "nation" and "state"; proper use of these words is crucial in discussions like this one. With that in mind, would you like to rephrase the rest so I can actually understand what you're trying to say?

 

[Rolfe]

I don't know the Catalan independence movement intimately, but some people I do know went to Catalonia as international observers last Sunday and they were unanimous in praising the movement as non-violent good-humoured grass-roots civic nationalism. Watching it all unfold over the past few years and especially last weekend I've also been struck by the similarities between the Catalan and Scottish Yes movements as regards song and poetry and dance and celebration and popular engagement and especially non-violence.

I do know that if anyone from Russia tried to influence the Scottish independence campaign they would be given extremely short shrift. I have a very strong suspicion the Catalan campaign is coming from the same place on that one.

It's a continuing matter of amazement to me just how bitterly any attempt by a non-independent country to achieve the status of independence is opposed by certain people. It seems as if being independent is fine and dandy for the nations who already have it. They have their flags and their anthems and their independence day celebrations, and foreign governments send them congratulatory messages on these days and even send envoys to take part in the ceremonies.

But for those of us looking on like poor children with their noses pressed to the window of the sweetie shop, it's different. No matter how peaceful, we're separatists, insurrectionists, Nazis and everything bad.

I know who the Nazis were in Catalonia last Sunday and they weren't Catalan.

 

[Planigale]

First thing, since you´re quoting the UN, we should remember that it does not support Catalan independentism, it doesn´t recognise the legitimacy of the referendum, would not allow Catalonia back in the UN etc. And Spain would fulfill those requirements better than Catalonia anyway, but then, if a large majority of Catalans wanted out (which is not the case, but if they did) wouldn´t it be fair to let them?

I haven´t seen those "requirements" mentioned anywhere in the current media coverage, all they seem to be repeating is "Catalans want to vote, voting is democratic, Spain is fascist because it doesn´t allow a democratic referendum " etc. etc. So the only requirement that seems to be waived so far is that of the will of the people. Which is fine and all, but I´d like it to be more concretely explained and defined. Who says Catalonia has a government and Barcelona doesn´t? How do you define what a nation is?

I mean, if you have a region with a large majority of citizens who wish to form their own nation, who says whether they fulfill the necessary requirements if not themselves? Why should they accept the legitimacy of some outside power to dictate whether they do, in opposition to that large majority?

Also the UN and other bodies do not recognise a 'Right' to self determination.

 

[Planigale]

I'm now piqued to know what a "auto-hungrian empire" is. Is it an empire that gets hungry by itself?

More importantly, Serbia (and Montenegro) acquired independence from an actual power-wielding empire, while Macedonia was conquered by Serbia in the two Balkan wars, and Slovenia, Croatia, and Bosnia-Herzegovina emerged as parts from the collapsing Austro-Hungarian Empire. Serbia used this to demand a leadership role within Yugoslavia, thus exacerbating tensions arising from other sources.


I'm really at a loss what the silly enclaves and exclaves in a small Dutch/Belgian town have to do with this. Yes, the issue goes back to ca. 1200 and has never been solved, and with the Benelux and the EU there is not really a problem anymore to solve.


Maybe look better?
County of Barcelona:

Principality of Catalonia:



False. BTW, "nation state" is a bit of an anachronism in this context. That concept was only developed in the 19th century.

The Catalans are a nation. Time and again, I'm appalled at the sloppy use of words like "nation" and "state"; proper use of these words is crucial in discussions like this one. With that in mind, would you like to rephrase the rest so I can actually understand what you're trying to say?

Above we have been given the definition of a state. Geography / population government.

What is your definition of a nation?

 

[Planigale]

Can we all get to decide which country our houses sit in or is that a privilege reserved for those who we decide we need to twist ourselves in knots over trying to deny the basic principles of self determination?

Why not?
Why does a nation have to be physically contiguous especially within the EU? Part of Catalan is entirely within France. Why should people have their nationality changed against their will because of an arbitrary mediaeval boundary? Or have their property 'relocated' from one nation to another?

 

[Planigale]

Please read my post again. I have explained the relationship of Catalonia with parliaments and monarchs. It was indeed not a kingdom but part of a kingdom. A "principality" with a Parliament, in a monarchical union. It was not itself a kingdom, or for that matter a Republic, which independentists now want to establish. At the time of its loss of independence, Scotland, like Catalonia, was in a monarchical union. Previously, unlike Catalonia, it had been a free-standing kingdom.

The Roman Empire is not a historical issue in the case of the Scotland England division. There is a division between the generally lowland south of the island of Britain, and the more upland and cooler north. The Romans were less interested in the latter, and simply walled it off when their empire stopped expanding. Later, different polities evolved in these areas of different character.

The Gaelic language is not an issue either. As people have changed from speaking Gaelic to English, they have not thereby become less Scottish.

Please find any contributor who states that the Catalans are more virtuous than the Castilians, or that one ethnicity is in general more virtuous than another. Nobody has argued that. What has been argued is that one political arrangement can be better than another, as I am sure you will agree. Or that peaceful voters are better than police thugs who beat them up and confiscate their ballot papers, as I am sure you will also agree.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=12015392#post12015392

What I'm saying about the topic:

Unlike the case for Scotland, Castilian Spain has been mooching of Catalonia during centuries.

Unlike the case for Scotland, Castilian Spain have sent their unemployed and internal migrants to Catalonia for Catalans to employ and feed them and as a result about half of the make-up of Catalonia's population come from people born in other places of Spain during the last century, hence there are so many "Catalans" against independence (Any Spanish citizen can vote, not only Catalonia's natives. Any person can be polled by Gallup, not only Spanish citizens but illegal immigrants who fear to lose their jobs in an independent Catalonia and will declare to the pollsters to be citizens)

Unlike a relatively uniform Britain (yes, the keyword is "relatively", and be sure I know Britain a hundred times better than most people here know Spain), there are much deeper differences among different Spanish nationalities, with 10 different languages -one of them not even and Indoeuropean one- some of them nearly extinct owing to political pressure from the central government*, and basically the hard working people (Galicia, Asturias, Cantabria, Basque Country, Navarra, Aragon, Catalonia, Valencia, Balearic Islands) feeding the imperialists (Castile, mainly Madrid, and Leon) and the any-time-of-day-is-good-for-a-siesta bumps (Extremadura, Andalusia, Murcia, Canary Islands).

I think this poster implies that some groups are more virtuous than others.

 

[Planigale]

Why not?
Why does a nation have to be physically contiguous especially within the EU? Part of Catalan is entirely within France. Why should people have their nationality changed against their will because of an arbitrary mediaeval boundary? Or have their property 'relocated' from one nation to another?

With modern spatial maths one can probably draw a contiguous boundary that would delineate an area with a majority voting one way vs the other. This would allow local majority decision making vs. e.g. a dominating urban majority for independence vs a rural majority against.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

Why not?
Why does a nation have to be physically contiguous especially within the EU? Part of Catalan is entirely within France. Why should people have their nationality changed against their will because of an arbitrary mediaeval boundary? Or have their property 'relocated' from one nation to another?

So for example any person currently resident in Northern Ireland should be able to simply declare their home part of the Republic and be treated as a citizen/resident of the Republic?

Scottish nationalists should simply be able to declare themselves part of another country (Somalia? Chile? Whichever they choose?) or indeed part of an independent Scotland and be recognised as such by Westminster?

 

[Giz]

Also the UN and other bodies do not recognise a 'Right' to self determination.

Of course not. The UN includes lots of dictatorships who would be loath to acknowledge any such right. Determinig whether something is moral or just is not a useful question for the UN.

 

[mumblethrax]

Also the UN and other bodies do not recognise a 'Right' to self determination.

They do, via the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights.

PART I

Article 1

1. All peoples have the right of self-determination. By virtue of that right they freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development.

It's also one of the organizing principles behind the UN, although it isn't framed as a right in the Charter.

More importantly, legitimizing the power of states seems more or less hopeless without stressing the importance of self-determination. Anything else is going to amount to naked authoritarianism.

 

[ddt]

Above we have been given the definition of a state. Geography / population government.

No, we haven't quite. There are two competing definitions of state.
1) the constitutive definition of state: a state is a state if it's recognized as such by the other states.
2) the declarative definition of state: that's the one from the Montevideo Convention. You forgot a very important aspect: the capacity to enter into relations with other states.
Definition (2) would say that Northern Cyprus or Abkhazia are also states, while they're recognized by none of the others - those have banded together in their club of non-recognized states. And then there are edge cases like Palestine or Taiwan or Kosovo that are recognized by some states. See the wiki article for more discussion.

What is your definition of a nation?

Really, do you need to be spoonfed? This is what wiki says:

The word nation stems from the Latin natio, meaning "people, tribe, kin, genus, class, flock." Black's Law Dictionary defines a nation as:

A people, or aggregation of men, existing in the form of an organized jural society, usually inhabiting a distinct portion of the earth, speaking the same language, using the same customs, possessing historic continuity, and distinguished from other like groups by their racial origin and characteristics, and generally, but not necessarily, living under the same government and sovereignty.[1]

A nation is distinct from a "people"[1], and is more abstract, and overtly political than an ethnic group.[2] It is a cultural-political community that has become conscious of its autonomy, unity, and particular interests.[3]

I highlighted the here important part: a nation is a group of people that doesn't necessarily have sovereignty or even a single government.

 

[dudalb]

I don't know the Catalan independence movement intimately, but some people I do know went to Catalonia as international observers last Sunday and they were unanimous in praising the movement as non-violent good-humoured grass-roots civic nationalism. Watching it all unfold over the past few years and especially last weekend I've also been struck by the similarities between the Catalan and Scottish Yes movements as regards song and poetry and dance and celebration and popular engagement and especially non-violence.

I do know that if anyone from Russia tried to influence the Scottish independence campaign they would be given extremely short shrift. I have a very strong suspicion the Catalan campaign is coming from the same place on that one.

It's a continuing matter of amazement to me just how bitterly any attempt by a non-independent country to achieve the status of independence is opposed by certain people. It seems as if being independent is fine and dandy for the nations who already have it. They have their flags and their anthems and their independence day celebrations, and foreign governments send them congratulatory messages on these days and even send envoys to take part in the ceremonies.

But for those of us looking on like poor children with their noses pressed to the window of the sweetie shop, it's different. No matter how peaceful, we're separatists, insurrectionists, Nazis and everything bad.

I know who the Nazis were in Catalonia last Sunday and they weren't Catalan.

I wish I could see the world in Black and White terms. It would make things so much easier.

 

[Craig B]

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=12015392#post12015392



I think this poster implies that some groups are more virtuous than others.

Yes it's a weird post, about which I have the strongest reservations. But "groups". Is the poster referring to ethnicity, or social category, or regional customs? It's not easy to understand.

However the post doesn't say that Catalans are better than Castilians. What it in fact is saying isn't at all clear, or in my view very sensible.

 

[quadraginta]

I have this problem too but it's infrequent so I work round it. I just copy the post and quote it manually. It's sometimes an issue with the edit function as well but again I can manually copy the post and paste it into the edit box, then edit it.

Yeah. That's what I do. And that's what Architect was apologizing for. I thought. Because you end up with a post lacking the the standard attribution with link to the quoted post.

I didn't realise there were specific features of particular posts that were causing the issue.

To tell the truth, I'm not so certain anymore that there are.

It had always seemed to me that the problem posts contained some such, but the most recent one one that blanked out on me had none at all.

 

[Hlafordlaes]

Sigh. Vargas Llosa spitting out crap on the tele today, calling Catalans racist. Shoe's on the other foot, clod. Hop along now.

Massive censorship means Madrid media, viewable here, has contained no images of police beating women and the elderly since events began. Slowly, the propaganda fix wraps around events to squeeze every last fact out of reality. Euronews now only broadcasts Madrid-approved pap. Macron's France24 interview a cantankerous old dolt and named him the "silent majority." And so on.

Hey, now we can go back to normal. As a non-Catalan who can pass as Castilian, I now get to hear all the wonderful slurs and n-words proffered in ignorance, as if I shared their views. Now with even mo' better 'democratic' gusto. Great!