Ed Dueling protests spark state of emergency in Virginia.

[Gilbert Syndrome]

We were talking about the Rostock progrom of 1992 and police's cooperation in it. Gilbert Syndrome then quickly changed the subject to the EDL.

Err, no, I gave an example of why the AntiFa can get arrested in any country, using an example relative to the UK, because you made out like they were targeted for no reason, you then replied to my post, knowing it was about my experience with the AntiFa and the EDL, and told me things that you know nothing about re: the problems that arise in the UK during these protests.

 

[Gilbert Syndrome]

And the heavily armed Nazi's are just there for peaceful protests. You are clear where your sympathies are.

When did I say that they weren't? Are you even reading what I'm typing? lol.

I don't sympathize with either group, the topic I was responding to was why the AntiFa get arrested, we all know why the fascists get arrested, stop being silly.

 

[Belz...]

It would, which is why laws have been created to prevent it. We have not done so for political affiliation.

I would think that laws should prevent discrimination based on unjustified reasons, whatever they may be.

 

[caveman1917]

And the thread is about Charlottesville.

Sure, the thread is about Charlottesville except for all those posts which aren't about Charlottesville. You didn't seem to have any problem with posts about removal of statues etc, but you do have a problem with (recent) historical examples and lessons of neo-nazi violence?

 

[Stacko]

So much winning!

A UN committee tasked with combatting racism has issued a formal "early warning" over conditions in the United States, a rare move often used to signal the potential of a looming civil conflict.

The United Nations Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination said it had invoked its "early warning and urgent action procedure" because of the proliferation of racist demonstrations in the US.

It specifically noted the unrest in Charlottesville, Virginia, in which a woman was killed after an avowed white supremacist ploughed his car into a group of anti-racism counterprotestors.

The racism committee, part of the UN human rights office, can issue a formal early warning to help prevent "existing problems from escalating into conflict" or to "prevent a resumption of conflict where it has previously occurred", according to the rights office website.

 

[uke2se]

Good article on Antifa:

https://slate.com/news-and-politics...dowy-groups-violent-tactics-to-the-world.html

 

[trustbutverify]

You mean like Sandra Bland? Rekia Boyd?

Or young black men, like Trayvon Martin, or John Crawford III, or Tamir Rice. In those cases people rushed to explain why it was perfectly fine to kill a black guy who was just minding their own business.

No, I absolutely think that the reaction would be weaker had the victim been a black woman, rather than a white woman. And in fact, Id expect that any adverse information would be worked over with a fine comb. Yes, I fully expect that had Heather Heyer been non-white, these same people would be digging through her police records to portray her as an angry criminal. they'd do their absolute best to belittle her.

Again, we watched Ferguson police flat-out attack the black community there, and many here justified it. "Oh, but the Quicky-Mart!" - and never mind that the police attacked the community *before* that QT burned.

Im not even sure why you're objecting. They're perfectly happy to justify murdering a black person, regardless of circumstances. Why would it suddenly change in this case?

Too bad being 100% correct is frowned upon these days.

 

[quadraginta]

From my experience, it doesn't matter who is creating the public nuisance, the police are impartial.

<snip>

How nice for you.

My experience goes back to the 60s in the U.S. It apparently is different than yours.

I get to see that difference every time I get a chest x-ray and the technician asks how my rib got broken. And I wasn't even at a public disturbance. I was just a couple of blocks too close to one.

With hair that was too long.

I have seen on our news reports that even sixty years later things haven't changed all that much. The cops don't have a great deal of restraint when they decide not to be impartial.

 

[dudalb]

I am finding it very troubling that some on the left here are now justifying political violence. That is very dangerous.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Right, but whether on private or public land, they are in public view, which I see as the silver bullet argument. Being on public space just strengthens the argument that menacing symbols violate public decency, regardless of the will of the majority.

Huh?

Should I be offended then about all the giant Jesus Saves and Jesus Loves You signs people erect on their private land that blare out over the roadways and freeways in the US?

 

[Thermal]

You mean like Sandra Bland? Rekia Boyd?

Or young black men, like Trayvon Martin, or John Crawford III, or Tamir Rice. In those cases people rushed to explain why it was perfectly fine to kill a black guy who was just minding their own business.

No, I absolutely think that the reaction would be weaker had the victim been a black woman, rather than a white woman. And in fact, Id expect that any adverse information would be worked over with a fine comb. Yes, I fully expect that had Heather Heyer been non-white, these same people would be digging through her police records to portray her as an angry criminal. they'd do their absolute best to belittle her.

Again, we watched Ferguson police flat-out attack the black community there, and many here justified it. "Oh, but the Quicky-Mart!" - and never mind that the police attacked the community *before* that QT burned.

Im not even sure why you're objecting. They're perfectly happy to justify murdering a black person, regardless of circumstances. Why would it suddenly change in this case?

Umm...because we are talking about a nazi committing murder at a white supremacist march? Bland, Boyd, Crawford, Rice, all killed by police, IIRC? So you suggest that police are actual nazis, and equate tham with Charlotteville? Rice was the kid who went to draw an airsoft pistol on police from his waistband and was shot. Are you seriously comparing that with a freaking nazi deliberately mowing down protestors in his car?

I think that media representation and public sentiment are turning heavily against neo-nazis, and one deliberately murdering a black person at a white supremacist march would fan resentment much, much more, with it's shades of public lynching. The public nature of this killing by a nazi civilian at a march is dramatically different than the (very real) issue of systemic racism in law enforcement.

 

[Thermal]

Huh?

Should I be offended then about all the giant Jesus Saves and Jesus Loves You signs people erect on their private land that blare out over the roadways and freeways in the US?

Be offended at whatever you choose. I am offended by just about any billboard advertisement. But Jesus Loves You signs do not carry the historical message that some believe you should be chained and owned as property. A statue of Lee invokes dread in blacks, I imagine. Both for what he did and stood for and for what those who revere him still evidently cherish. No, I don't think anyone has the right to menace a portion of the public with imagery.

 

[quadraginta]

<snip>

I think that media representation and public sentiment are turning heavily against neo-nazis, and one deliberately murdering a black person at a white supremacist march would fan resentment much, much more, with it's shades of public lynching. The public nature of this killing by a nazi civilian at a march is dramatically different than the (very real) issue of systemic racism in law enforcement.

If this were the case I'd expect we'd be hearing much more in the national media about Deandre Harris who, although not killed by Neo-Nazis, very nearly was. The three men who beat him with sticks put him in the hospital with ... among many other traumas ... severe blood loss. One comment from a hospital employee described him as "very lucky".

Where is all the air time about that black person's treatment?

Many, if not most of the people following the reporting on this incident don't even know that the incident took place, even though the Governor of Virginia is making public demands for the arrest and prosecution of Harris's assailants.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Be offended at whatever you choose. I am offended by just about any billboard advertisement. But Jesus Loves You signs do not carry the historical message that some believe you should be chained and owned as property. A statue of Lee invokes dread in blacks, I imagine. Both for what he did and stood for and for what those who revere him still evidently cherish. No, I don't think anyone has the right to menace a portion of the public with imagery.

You are addressing the wrong point. You need to address private and public property, not whatever your thoughts are about the choice the private citizen makes given his/her right to free speech.

 

[Delphic Oracle]

Umm...because we are talking about a nazi committing murder at a white supremacist march? Bland, Boyd, Crawford, Rice, all killed by police, IIRC? So you suggest that police are actual nazis, and equate tham with Charlotteville? Rice was the kid who went to draw an airsoft pistol on police from his waistband and was shot. Are you seriously comparing that with a freaking nazi deliberately mowing down protestors in his car?

I think that media representation and public sentiment are turning heavily against neo-nazis, and one deliberately murdering a black person at a white supremacist march would fan resentment much, much more, with it's shades of public lynching. The public nature of this killing by a nazi civilian at a march is dramatically different than the (very real) issue of systemic racism in law enforcement.

The way you blithely make a small child complicit in their own extrajudicial homicide is a great example of why your conclusion misses the mark.

The neonazi online rags were already full of stories of an out of control mob of black thugs beating on his car from all sides with 1-gallon paint cans full of cement. Viola, instant (if completely fabricated) justification. Or they'd have torn into her private life and found that one time she went to the principal's office so clearly she deserved to die. Rationality is not a factor here.

 

[uke2se]

An article a lot of people posting in this thread should read:

http://edition.cnn.com/2017/08/18/us/ordinary-white-supremacists/index.html

ETA: Tl/dr - an exposé on the types of responses to white supremacists and those that oppose them - all common in this thread - and how we've seen it before during the civil rights movement in the 60s. Basically, how white people can support a white supremacist agenda without really doing anything, and not even be conciously aware of it.

 

[Meadmaker]

I was watching some news footage of the Charlottesville rally and a bit of trivia came up.

What the heck is "Blood and Soil"? The Nazis were chanting it at one point. I happened to also see it in a CNN nostalgia documentary talking about tracking "The Order", a white supremacist cult from the '70s.

Does anyone know the origin of this saying? Is it a "Bonnie Blue Flag" reference?

We are a band of brothers, fighting for the soil....

 

[uke2se]

I was watching some news footage of the Charlottesville rally and a bit of trivia came up.

What the heck is "Blood and Soil"? The Nazis were chanting it at one point. I happened to also see it in a CNN nostalgia documentary talking about tracking "The Order", a white supremacist cult from the '70s.

Does anyone know the origin of this saying? Is it a "Bonnie Blue Flag" reference?

We are a band of brothers, fighting for the soil....

It's from Nazi Germany. Blut und Boden.

 

[pgwenthold]

It's from Nazi Germany. Blut und Boden.

But it sounds so innocuous, doesn't it?

From wikipedia

Blood and soil (German: Blut und Boden) is a slogan expressing the nineteenth-century German idealization of a racially defined national body ("blood") united with a settlement area ("soil"). By it, rural and farm life forms are not only idealized as a counterweight to urban ones, but are also combined with racist and anti-Semitic ideas of a sedentary Germanic-Nordic peasantry as opposed to (specifically Jewish) nomadism. The contemporary German concept Lebensraum, the belief that the German people needed to reclaim historically German areas of Eastern Europe into which they could expand, is tied to it.

"Blood and soil" was a key slogan of Nazi ideology.

Putting the "E" in the ISF....

 

[ponderingturtle]

But it sounds so innocuous, doesn't it?

From wikipedia


Putting the "E" in the ISF....

So a basic statement of the principle of ethno-nationalism.