Ed Dueling protests spark state of emergency in Virginia.

[The Big Dog]

For my part, I didn't mean to accuse you of any ill will. The "state property" thing just stuck out in my mind because I've been following local removals of Confederate (and other white supremacist) monuments - particularly because Taney's statue was, in effect, a memorial from the 1860s-70s rather than an ugly artifact of the Jim Crow era (I have no clue whether or not Taney himself went to the Confederacy).

he did not

 

[Thermal]

Well, first, let's not pretend that this white supremacy rally was *really* just about the statue. It was a show of force, and an attempt to align the pseudo-nazis, a small number of "leaders" like Spencer, and the angry, disaffected young white guys that had been radicalized over the internet. And it's not lost on me that it took the murder of a young white woman to mobilize so many people.

Having said that...these things should *generally* be controlled by local governments. There are clear exceptions - the Taney statue here in Maryland was on State House grounds, and thus is under the control of the state government rather than the Annapolis local government, and I'm pretty sure that the statues in the House Rotunda are also controlled by various state governments - each one given a certain area to decorate with a statue of their choosing.

You don't think a nazi murdering a young black woman would have caused more uproar? I would certainly think so.

 

[Thermal]

Something which is on private land but in public view can also be subject to the limits of public taste and decency.
If, instead of Lenin, it were a statue of one of the more iconic scenes from Deep Throat I expect they could find a way to overcome the 'private land' hurdle.

Maybe the question is, "Is it sufficiently offensive to public sensibilities?".

I'm not trying to claim that is a reasonable standard. Nor an I suggesting that the statue of Lenin comes anywhere close to such a threshold.

Just pointing out that it is one which communities don't hesitate to use even when private property is concerned.

The hilited seems to be the trump card in the argument. It doesn't matter if the majority want threatening imagery displayed. And let's face it, Confederate memorials are menacing to any black people.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

The hilited seems to be the trump card in the argument. It doesn't matter if the majority want threatening imagery displayed. And let's face it, Confederate memorials are menacing to any black people.

The Confederate statues in question are all in public spaces.

 

[Thermal]

The Confederate statues in question are all in public spaces.

Right, but whether on private or public land, they are in public view, which I see as the silver bullet argument. Being on public space just strengthens the argument that menacing symbols violate public decency, regardless of the will of the majority.

 

[Mumbles]

You don't think a nazi murdering a young black woman would have caused more uproar? I would certainly think so.

You mean like Sandra Bland? Rekia Boyd?

Or young black men, like Trayvon Martin, or John Crawford III, or Tamir Rice. In those cases people rushed to explain why it was perfectly fine to kill a black guy who was just minding their own business.

No, I absolutely think that the reaction would be weaker had the victim been a black woman, rather than a white woman. And in fact, Id expect that any adverse information would be worked over with a fine comb. Yes, I fully expect that had Heather Heyer been non-white, these same people would be digging through her police records to portray her as an angry criminal. they'd do their absolute best to belittle her.

Again, we watched Ferguson police flat-out attack the black community there, and many here justified it. "Oh, but the Quicky-Mart!" - and never mind that the police attacked the community *before* that QT burned.

Im not even sure why you're objecting. They're perfectly happy to justify murdering a black person, regardless of circumstances. Why would it suddenly change in this case?

 

[ponderingturtle]

You don't think a nazi murdering a young black woman would have caused more uproar? I would certainly think so.

It does show how much more effective one white death is at generating uproad than a whole lot of black deaths.

 

[caveman1917]

Tbf, having worked security on days when there has been massive rallies with the EDL, the issue is usually in the AntiFa turning up without notifying anyone, including the police or the security services.

That must be the most pathetic attempt at white-washing police cooperation in a neo-nazi anti-immigrant progrom ever. So cops stand by for 3 days, watching approvingly, as neo-nazis attack an apartment building housing immigrants. When finally antifa manages to show up in sufficient force to chase the nazis away, the cops arrest antifa. But of course it's all antifa's fault

This is why so many AntiFa people end up getting arrested

No it isn't. The reason they get arrested is because, again, the cops are almost always directly working with/for the fascists.

 

[Gilbert Syndrome]

That must be the most pathetic attempt at white-washing police cooperation in a neo-nazi anti-immigrant progrom ever. So cops stand by for 3 days, watching approvingly, as neo-nazis attack an apartment building housing immigrants. When finally antifa manages to show up in sufficient force to chase the nazis away, the cops arrest antifa. But of course it's all antifa's fault

You don't seem to have a clue what you're talking about, considering the fact that I said the EDL do not generally cause trouble. They march, annoying everyone, yeah, and then they bugger off. The problem arises when the counter-protesters turn up. You see, in the real world, not in your preferred world of fiction, but in the real world, groups like the EDL have to notify the police, the security services, and sometimes the council, that they are marching, this then enables plans to be in place for cordons and manned guarding, controlling the march, and making sure they get to where they're going, along a prearranged route. I know this, because it's my job, and I've done it countless times.

Now, when groups like the AntiFa turn up unannounced, they do so from areas that are usually not manned, this then causes issues because there aren't enough security or police to handle the influx of people. It also causes issues in the already crowded town-center, because you have a hundred+ people in masks and hoods, usually throwing things and instigating trouble with the people already marching, which then causes issues for the general public and the various businesses. You see, these are the issues that people face in the real world, mate, have you been there?

No it isn't. The reason they get arrested is because, again, the cops are almost always directly working with/for the fascists.

Complete and utter nonsense. You must've dreamed this up whilst reading some hilarious blog written by a child in a Guy Fawkes mask in his mother's basement.

The "cops" are not working with the EDL in the scenario that I am talking about, and nor are they working with the AntiFa, they are working with the security services and for the safety of the general public and those who are marching.


Arrests occur because people act like morons and don't use their noggins to understand that if you're wearing a mask or a hood and carrying potentially offensive weapons which you aim to throw about the crowded place, you're going to hurt people, damage property and generally cause a nuisance. Furthermore, it is forbidden to be in places like shopping centers whilst disguising your face, for obvious bloody reasons. This means that if a person in a hood, mask or bandanna, is asked to leave, and does not, they are then trespassing, ergo: arrest.

Seriously, grow up and use your common sense.

 

[caveman1917]

You don't seem to have a clue what you're talking about

I know very well what I'm talking about.

Complete and utter nonsense. You must've dreamed this up whilst reading some hilarious blog written by a child in a Guy Fawkes mask in his mother's basement.

I've been in more antifa actions than you could count, and you're talking out of your behind. Again, your defense of police cooperation with fascists (such as the Rostock progrom of 1992) is just pathetic.

Seriously, grow up and use your common sense.

No thanks, I've grown up and learned to use my observations and deductive skills, rather than your far-right propaganda (aka "common sense").

 

[Gilbert Syndrome]

I know very well what I'm talking about.

When you tell me that the police, who I work with on an almost daily basis, is actively working alongside fascists, it is clear that you're not speaking from a place of logic or common sense.

I've been in more antifa actions then you could count, and you're talking out of your behind. Again, your defense of police cooperation with fascists (such as the Rostock progrom of 1992) is just pathetic.

Really, where? I've worked at rallies and marches from London, to Birmingham, to Oldham, to Liverpool, to Manchester, to Newcastle. And they're always the same. There wouldn't be as much of an issue if the AntiFa notified everyone of their intention to turn up, which they do not do. The police are working to prevent public-nuisance, and are also working for the protection of the public, the marchers, and the businesses which are also at risk.

No thanks, I've grown up and learned to use my observations and deductive skills, rather than your propaganda.

Really? Because you appear to b a 34 y/o who thinks that "the police are working alongside the fascists," which is a rather embarrassing and illogical outlook to have as a grown-ass man, lol. I can only suspect that you're one of the nuggets in a mask creating a public nuisance and wondering why you're being arrested

 

[ponderingturtle]

When you tell me that the police, who I work with on an almost daily basis, is actively working alongside fascists, it is clear that you're not speaking from a place of logic or common sense.

Which specific departments. You both are talking in such broad terms about different events and trying to generalize to all police, all Nazi's and all anti fascists.

What would the police you work with do if they local Nazi's used the same techniques of violating the assembly route to mix it up with the counter protesters, while carrying shields and clubs? And the counter protesters did have a permit here, and as far as I can tell it was the Nazi's who violated their permit first.

Really? Because you appear to b a 34 y/o who thinks that "the police are working alongside the fascists," which is a rather embarrassing and illogical outlook to have as a grown-ass man, lol. I can only suspect that you're one of the nuggets in a mask creating a public nuisance and wondering why you're being arrested

Why? a lot of police are politically aligned with the white supremacists views of this protest. There are all those regular scandals about the police violating the constitutional rights of blacks at a higher rate than whites, being more violent toward blacks and of course using racial epithets in official communications.

Your attempt to equate the situation in Britain with the situation in the US is pretty laughable. I bet if avowed racists shot and killed 5 people in Britain durring a strike in 1978 who belonged to the communist workers party they might even have been prosecuted. Now that is how you stage a real counter protest. None of this namby pamby antifasc BS. The KKK knows how to get things done.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greensboro_massacre

 

[caveman1917]

When you tell me that the police, who I work with on an almost daily basis, is actively working alongside fascists, it is clear that you're not speaking from a place of logic or common sense.

Or, much more likely, you are yourself sympathetic of fascists and are trying to white-wash them and their allies among the police.

Really, where? I've worked at rallies and marches from London, to Birmingham, to Oldham, to Liverpool, to Manchester, to Newcastle. And they're always the same. There wouldn't be as much of an issue if the AntiFa notified everyone of their intention to turn up, which they do not do. The police are working to prevent public-nuisance, and are also working for the protection of the public, the marchers, and the businesses which are also at risk.

Anyone is free to check up on the EDL and see for themselves how "non-violent" they are, and whether these claims about it being the antifa's fault for "public nuissance" with the EDL hold any water.

Really? Because you appear to b a 34 y/o who thinks that "the police are working alongside the fascists," which is a rather embarrassing and illogical outlook to have as a grown-ass man, lol. I can only suspect that you're one of the nuggets in a mask creating a public nuisance and wondering why you're being arrested

And you appear to be a staunch fascist sympathizer. Which one is more embarrassing, do you think?

 

[Belz...]

Arnold Schwartzenager's speech on this was appropriate.

Schwarzenegger seems like a pretty cool Republican, all things considered.

 

[caveman1917]

Which specific departments. You both are talking in such broad terms about different events and trying to generalize to all police, all Nazi's and all anti fascists.

We were talking about the Rostock progrom of 1992 and police's cooperation in it. Gilbert Syndrome then quickly changed the subject to the EDL.

 

[ponderingturtle]

We were talking about the Rostock progrom of 1992 and police's cooperation in it. Gilbert Syndrome then quickly changed the subject to the EDL.

And the thread is about Charlottesville.

 

[Gilbert Syndrome]

Which specific departments. You both are talking in such broad terms about different events and trying to generalize to all police, all Nazi's and all anti fascists.

What would the police you work with do if they local Nazi's used the same techniques of violating the assembly route to mix it up with the counter protesters, while carrying shields and clubs? And the counter protesters did have a permit here, and as far as I can tell it was the Nazi's who violated their permit first.

From my experience, it doesn't matter who is creating the public nuisance, the police are impartial. The thing is, in the UK,groups such as the EDL generally want to be allowed to march, so they do what they have/need to do in order to still be able to continue marching. They can cause trouble, but they're usually pretty amicable, they turn up, march, and leave. Their marches are annoying, because they take up police time, and require additional groups, such as hired security groups, etc. This is made easier for all due to them properly organizing the march, making it easier to plan manned guards along the prearranged route and set up cordons where necessary.

Problems arise when counter groups just turn up randomly, for obvious reasons. The already limited police and security are stretched to their limits, and the potential for trouble is obviously high. You've got to consider the fact that this is usually in an already busy town center, with average members of the public going about their business. It disrupts everything, and instead of having an organized march, you end up with warfare.

If the EDL did the same thing, and randomly turned up to create havoc, then the police and the security groups would in the exact same position as the one I mentioned. It's nothing to do with AntiFa or the EDL, it's to do with the obvious problem of having a routine march become a problematic battle between two groups of individuals who are creating a public nuisance, potentially damaging public property, causing issues for local businesses and all other manner of problems that the police and the security services could honestly do without.

People tend to forget that the police and security are there to do a job, a job they get paid the same wage as other police and security get for doing less stressful work.

There's no conspiracy, no favouritism, there's just a bunch of limited people doing far more work than is necessary. We'd much prefer peaceful protests all-round, but that almost never happens.

Why? a lot of police are politically aligned with the white supremacists views of this protest. There are all those regular scandals about the police violating the constitutional rights of blacks at a higher rate than whites, being more violent toward blacks and of course using racial epithets in official communications.

Your attempt to equate the situation in Britain with the situation in the US is pretty laughable. I bet if avowed racists shot and killed 5 people in Britain durring a strike in 1978 who belonged to the communist workers party they might even have been prosecuted. Now that is how you stage a real counter protest. None of this namby pamby antifasc BS. The KKK knows how to get things done.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greensboro_massacre

Not all police are aligned with white supremacists at all, though. People are people, no matter their position, so you'll always have room for such things, but it's not the norm, not here, anyway.

I'm not equating anything, I was giving an example of why AntiFa members can and do get arrested, because I've seen it up close and personal on many many occasions.

You can't claim that the AntiFa are out for peaceful protests when they're wearing disguises and carrying bricks and bottles, whether in the UK or in the US. It's common sense, really.

 

[Gilbert Syndrome]

Or, much more likely, you are yourself sympathetic of fascists and are trying to white-wash them and their allies among the police.

Yeah, lol, white-power, man! Get a grip. I'm not sympathetic to anyone who is causing an issue, hence why I said we'd all prefer that none of these groups bothered marching, or to just do it quietly and peacefully. I'd much rather not have to deal with any protesters, but it's a job.

Anyone is free to check up on the EDL and see for themselves how "non-violent" they are, and whether these claims about it being the antifa's fault for "public nuissance" with the EDL hold any water.

Who said they weren't capable of violence? The links you provide are all examples of issues arising when two groups clash. One group on its own is generally just a march, two groups is an opposing protest.

And you appear to be a staunch fascist sympathizer. Which one is more embarrassing, do you think?

Well, considering the genuine fact that I don't sympathize with either group, and am just a grown man doing a job, I'd have to say that your wild imagination and seemingly teenage-outlook is the embarrassing one to hold, mate, lol.

 

[ponderingturtle]

You can't claim that the AntiFa are out for peaceful protests when they're wearing disguises and carrying bricks and bottles, whether in the UK or in the US. It's common sense, really.

And the heavily armed Nazi's are just there for peaceful protests. You are clear where your sympathies are.

 

[caveman1917]

A nice example, recently in Brussels, is police's cooperation[*] with about 500 neo-nazi hooligans, allowing them to rob and smash up "Paki nightshops" before arriving at the Beurs square where they then went on to assault people gathered there for a vigil in memory of the terrorist attacks at Zaventem Airport. The cops immediately went on to arrest human rights observers (including the head of the Belgian Human Rights League) as the neo-nazi hooligans were attacking people all around.

* which can be clearly seen in the footage, for example the head of the Brussels police force shaking hands and patting the backs of the leaders of the hooligans in an obviously friendly and cooperative atmosphere.