Ed Dueling protests spark state of emergency in Virginia.

[Emily's Cat]

I'm curious how far you would take this.

Suppose it was a cause really, really near and dear to you (I can't imagine what causes anyone would have in common with white nationalists who weren't themselves white nationalists, but whatever)

Do you seriously think that white nationalists are completely one dimensional and have absolutely no interests other than white nationalism?

Don't make the sophomoric mistake of thinking that your opposition is simplistically shallow.

would you display a Nazi flag? I'm not saying you would have carry it all day. Just maybe wave it around a little bit. What if they had free juice and cookies, but to get them you had to chant at least three Nazi slogans? Would you do it? I'm talking really good cookies.

Of course not. I'm there for the cause, not the organizers.

I've gone to church fundraisers that are raising money for something I believe in. I didn't pray, nor did I wear a cross. Duh.

 

[sir drinks-a-lot]

It is if you're going to make the asinine argument the people other than white nationalists would attend a white nationalist rally.

I think it's likely that most or all of the people there by the time the violence went down were white nationalists or similar. But I think you've really got some outsized and unwarranted confidence in your conclusion. Everyone keeps posting that flyer, but did you realize that many events have several groups that all use different flyers? Or that some people don't even see the flyer? Those are the kinds of things that come up if you think about something for more than two seconds. Give it a shot sometime!

 

[Emily's Cat]

No. Nazi enabler.


No, not as bad. Just bad.

By your own logic, you are a violence enabler becuase you haven't yet condemned the antifa loons loudly enough to satisfy my threshold.

You violence enabler you. I hope you're happy with yourself, enabling violence and all.

Also, THAT was a heck of a lot closer to a tu quoque than anything else you've errantly called out.

 

[Oystein]

Lol. If white supremacists organize a march against global warming, does that make anyone who shows up to protest global warming a nazi sympathizer?

This is an incredibly silly question.
White Supremacists do not organize marches against global warming. They organize white supremacy marches.

But I'll give you a straight answer:
YES, everyone who marches on that march alongside White Supremacists, who chose a slogan of "Unite the Right" for this global warming march, who used Nazi symbolism on their invitation, who show Nazi symbols during the global warming march and shout racist and anti-semitic slogans, every such global warming activist who does not run soon and far from this white supremacy march dishonestly called a global warming march, would be a terrible fool, a nazi enabler, and a very bad person for it.

The excuse "but they are marching for General Lee" would be silly, stupid, if it weren't deliberately hateful.
This was most empathically NOT a rally for a statue.
This was a White Supremacy, Nazi, KKK march.
Extremely overtly so.

And everyone not a nazi marching in it instead of distancing themselves from it is a nazi sympathizer. And everyone defending these nazi sympathizers by considering stubbornly that these nazi sympathizers may be very fine people is a nazi enabler.

What's so difficult about this?

 

[Giordano]

Emily's Cat,

Of course you have a right to make your own judgements.. But you are saying that words have no power, whereas to my knowledge they are among the most powerful forces on the planet. They birth and drive political and religious movements that have changed the lives of 100s of millions of people. They can comfort people or frighten them to the core of their being. You know- a pen is mightier than the sword and that kind of stuff? But you say that are only concerned with what people do, their actions, as if what they speak is not an action.

And you say that you don't care about their signs or symbols as long as they don't "violate the rights of others," which I gather from your posts means that they don't illegally violate the rights of others. Well, there are a lot of ways to be a mean, dispictable, nasty, evil person who hurts, damages, or ruins the lives of those around them but still keep well within the limits of your criterion.

I actually doubt if this is really how you choose your friends or determine who instead you dislike in your personal life. I doubt if this is really how you judge who is a good person and who is a bad person among the people you know. You really don't care what they say or think?

In fact despite what you posted as to attending a rally run by white supremacists if you agreed on one issue, say preserving Confederate statues, I doubt you choose to socialize with people in your private life based on one point of agreement. "Oh we are all into scrapbooking so I love our weekly meetings even if they are all rapists! Well they haven't actually rapred anyone yet. They just talk and fantasize about rape all the time. Read books about rape. Watch movies about rape. Emulate the symbols of rapist gangs from a few years ago. Yell at women that they would like to rape them. They even have some friends who did rape people. But I don't judge them until they actually rape someone."

Perhaps I am wrong to doubt these things about you. To suspect that you were exaggerating your willingness to ignore what people say or believe. But I would feel better if my doubts were correct.

 

[Oystein]

By your own logic, you are a violence enabler becuase you haven't yet condemned the antifa loons loudly enough to satisfy my threshold.

You violence enabler you. I hope you're happy with yourself, enabling violence and all.

Also, THAT was a heck of a lot closer to a tu quoque than anything else you've errantly called out.

You really suck at tu cuoque.

"my threshold" - did I not ask you to answer according to YOUR own threshold?
Early, and several times, did I condem left violence.
If you asked me if there were good people among violent leftist, you would get a straight answer: No.

That's the difference between me and you.
I can give you straight answers. I do NOT enable left violence.

You however cannot make yourself admit that a) nazis are fundamentally bad and that therefore b) marching in a nazi rally is showing sympathy for nazi causes. Because that is the *********** purpose of marching in a rally: To demonstrate public support for the motto and the slogans of the rally as stated by its orgamizers on the invitation and as shouted by the participants!

And you considering that nazi sympethizers are very fine people is enabling nazis.
Simple as that.
Now please stop your inept tu cuoques.

 

[johnny karate]

It's as if you're going to make the asinine argument that it was a white nationalist rally, as opposed to a rally for the preservation of a statue that was organized by white nationalists.

How is a rally organized and sponsored by white nationalists not a white nationalist rally?

They were brandishing Nazi flags and chanting Nazi slogans. What does that have to do with preserving a statue? They were clearly there to push their agenda.

 

[johnny karate]

I think it's likely that most or all of the people there by the time the violence went down were white nationalists or similar. But I think you've really got some outsized and unwarranted confidence in your conclusion. Everyone keeps posting that flyer, but did you realize that many events have several groups that all use different flyers? Or that some people don't even see the flyer? Those are the kinds of things that come up if you think about something for more than two seconds. Give it a shot sometime!

Show me some of these other flyers. Show me photos or videos of these other groups. Show me anything that demonstrates you're not pulling all of this out of your ass.

 

[caveman1917]

You're conducting a with hunt? Who are you hunting?

Feel free to answer my open question to you, and I'll consider continuing to answer yours.

 

[Checkmite]

Do you seriously think that white nationalists are completely one dimensional and have absolutely no interests other than white nationalism?

This is that bad faith thing I was talking about.

The white nationalists' interest in "preserving the Confederate statue" is wholly a function of their white nationalism. It's patently absurd to assert or even imply it's reasonable to expect that an entire troop of avowed white nationalists would hold a rally in support of Confederate symbols in a way that is "separated" from their white nationalist beliefs.

 

[trustbutverify]

How is a rally organized and sponsored by white nationalists not a white nationalist rally?

When it's ostensibly being held to honor a hero for the cause of chattel slavery?
I guess.

 

[Oystein]

If people joing a cause that is also joined by people you detest, then they are not good people. If people join a cause that you care about, however, then the detestable people who are there just happen to be there and that's okay. It's a very selective application of ethics you've got.

Holy crap, you do this on purpose right? You deliberately misrepresent what the two protests really were, right?

The Nazi rally that was NOT - as you erroneously (or dishonestly?) imply - for some good cause that some nazis happened to attend!
It was a march that
A) was Organized by White Supremacists
B) had a motto calling for Nazis, White Supremacists and friends to unite
C) had an invite with lots of Nazi symbolism
D) shouted White Supremacist slogans in an organized and forceful manner
E) was attended by an overwhelming contingent of White Supremacists
F) who showed overtly a repertoir of Nazi symbols

That was a Nazi march.

Emily's Cat: There was no good cause!
The cause was to strengthen White Supremacism, in a quest to ´move closer to a Nazi America that expels, or kills, all Jews and all blacks! The cause of that march was evil down to its very last root!


The counter protest had a cause that was intrinsically good: To oppose hatred, to oppose oppresion, to oppose, in the long run, genocide.
Some of those protestors employ means I condemn.
But that protest was not organized by the militants. It's motto did not call for violence. It's chants did not call for violence.


You equivocate two things that are very unequal.

And this makes you, more than ever, a very conscious, purpose-driven nazi-enabler. You HAVE admitted this for all practical purposes, when you said that the ideas of Nazis are not a problem!

 

[johnny karate]

Do you seriously think that white nationalists are completely one dimensional and have absolutely no interests other than white nationalism?

Don't make the sophomoric mistake of thinking that your opposition is simplistically shallow.

I'm sure there are pedophiles who are well-rounded, interesting people. Why would I care?

Of course not. I'm there for the cause, not the organizers.

I've gone to church fundraisers that are raising money for something I believe in. I didn't pray, nor did I wear a cross. Duh.

Yeah, going to a church fundraiser and attending a white nationalist rally. Totally the same thing.

 

[Oystein]

Do you seriously think that white nationalists are completely one dimensional and have absolutely no interests other than white nationalism?

Strawman.

Of course not. I'm there for the cause, not the organizers.

The cause, as advertised and as overtly shown by all attendants, was to "Unite the [racist] Right".
You continue to fight for (enable) this cause.

I've gone to church fundraisers that are raising money for something I believe in. I didn't pray, nor did I wear a cross. Duh.

Are you equivocating Nazis now with the churches you went to?? Seriously?? Is your moral compass that broken??

 

[caveman1917]

But you are saying that words have no power, whereas to my knowledge they are among the most powerful forces on the planet.

I'd say nuclear weapons are even more powerful. As for example demonstrated by the two major terrorist attacks involving them in 1945.

You know- a pen is mightier than the sword and that kind of stuff?

Yet nukes are even mightier, just look at them:

 

[Oystein]

Dammit, I said "good night" a long while ago - twice.
But this nazi enabler got to my bone!

 

[trustbutverify]

Feel free to answer my open question to you, and I'll consider continuing to answer yours.

Since I'm not conducting a witch hunt, or participating in yours, the question doesn't apply to me. However, if you could link to the answer that began your "continuation", it would probably answer my question anyway. Then I might consider answering your question.

 

[johnny karate]

This is that bad faith thing I was talking about.

The white nationalists' interest in "preserving the Confederate statue" is wholly a function of their white nationalism. It's patently absurd to assert or even imply it's reasonable to expect that an entire troop of avowed white nationalists would hold a rally in support of Confederate symbols in a way that is "separated" from their white nationalist beliefs.

Much more articulate than my response.

 

[Giordano]

I'd say nuclear weapons are even more powerful. As for example demonstrated by the two major terrorist attacks involving them in 1945.



Yet nukes are even mightier, just look at them:

I did say "among" the most powerful... But despite the destruction of nukes, I do believe that an idea can spread throughout the globe and reverberate throughout the ages in ways that will change people's live more than a few nuclear weapons. And words are what influence if and who gets nuked. But no doubt the effects of 10,000 nukes would have some serious staying power.

 

[Giordano]

In Germany in the 1920s and 30's there were Nazis, Nazi sympathizers, Nazi enablers. And Nazi dupes. Important to remember that they all contributed to the events that led to many millions of people dead.