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Ed Dueling protests spark state of emergency in Virginia.

And yet you seem to be arguing very strongly against those of us who do exactly that, seemingly judging our harsh opinions as being vaguely wrong on some level, inferior to your own views.

I am arguing against what I see as both unethical and irrational behavior, just as you are.

The difference here is that my argument has led several people to label me and attempt to shame me as a Nazi sympathizer, and they have insinuated that I'm just as bad as a Nazi because I haven't condemned them loudly enough.

You might note that I have not done the same thing.

Despite how despicable I thin the antifa folks are, I have yet to condemn them all as bad people. I have yet to insist that it's impossible for any of them to be good people. I have yet to insist that anyone who fails to condemn them is just as bad as them.

That's where the difference lies.
 
I'm not falling in line with the mandate to froth at the mouth and condemn an entire group of people based on their beliefs... therefore I'm a Nazi enabler! Yay!
Exactly! I am glad you get it! :)

How long before I'm also a sexist because I'm not vehemently opposed to every single topic ever brought up by an MRA idiot? For the record, I support the argument that courts unfairly award primary custody to women. Pretty sure if I keep this up, you guys will award me an honorable sex change so you can condemn me as a full-fledged evil white male. :rolleyes:
The third tu cuoque that fails badly.
 
None so far. Although, to be fair, I haven't been to ANY rallies of any sort.

That said, if for some unfathomable reason, a pile of racist bigots were to organize a rally for something that I truly held dear and had great devotion to, I'm not going to let their idiocy stop me from taking a stand.

I'm curious how far you would take this.

Suppose it was a cause really, really near and dear to you (I can't imagine what causes anyone would have in common with white nationalists who weren't themselves white nationalists, but whatever) would you display a Nazi flag? I'm not saying you would have carry it all day. Just maybe wave it around a little bit. What if they had free juice and cookies, but to get them you had to chant at least three Nazi slogans? Would you do it? I'm talking really good cookies.
 
Wow... okay.

And if you do attend a white nationalist rally rally for something I hold dear that happened to have been organized by white nationalists, what benefit of the doubt do you feel you are owed by people who might judge you for that?

Depends on whether they're smart enough to separate the cause of the rally from the beliefs of the people who organized it.

Your 'clever' little edit did not go unnoticed.
 
For the record, Trump either invented the meme or promoted someone else's that there actually were right wingers at the rally there to protest the removal of the Gen Lee statue.

The very thorough embedded, well documented reporting by the VICE reporter, did not find any such people there interested in the statue. Rather, they were there to come out of the white supremacist/Nazi closet.
 
...
The difference here is that my argument has led several people to label me and attempt to shame me as a Nazi sympathizer,
No. Nazi enabler.

...and they have insinuated that I'm just as bad as a Nazi because I haven't condemned them loudly enough.
No, not as bad. Just bad.

...Despite how despicable I thin the antifa folks are, I have yet to condemn them all as bad people.
Yet another failed tu cuoque. And whataboutism.

I have yet to insist that it's impossible for any of them to be good people. I have yet to insist that anyone who fails to condemn them is just as bad as them.

That's where the difference lies.
You are free to enable nazis by considering that people who march in a Nazi rally are very fine people according to your moral compass. Your prerogative entirely. Just understand that adding number and strength to Nazis is enabling Nazis. Simple as that.
 
Bothsideism again. You really need to change the record.

Are you unable to condemn the Nazi murderers of Charlottesville without having to impulsively condemn some leftist boogie man in the next breath? Your president couldn't. Are you no better than him?

As far as I know, there was only one Nazi murderer in Charlottesville. And yes, I condemn him. And of course the antifa folks may become the first people honored with sainthood and the Nobel Peace Prize in the same year.
 
Have all these sudden "Antifa supporters" perhaps considered that a better way to contribute might be to actually do something useful? Or even if only financially, there is for example a need for legal funds for the comrades that were kidnapped at the inauguration.

I mean, don't get me wrong, I love a good witch-hunt as much as the next guy. But it might be something to consider as well.
 
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I am arguing against what I see as both unethical and irrational behavior, just as you are.


And in pursuit of that goal, you're doing the very thing you claim not to do: judging us based on our words and beliefs. You quite obviously believe that you are arguing from a position of moral superiority. That requires a judgement of us.

You might note that I have not done the same thing.


Not explicitly, no. But we're human beings. "Explicitly" is not the only way we express our opinion of others.

Despite how despicable I thin the antifa folks are, I have yet to condemn them all as bad people.


You might want to reevaluate that sentence and the process that led to its construction.

I have yet to insist that it's impossible for any of them to be good people. I have yet to insist that anyone who fails to condemn them is just as bad as them.


Yes. You've simply judged our position to be worse than your own.
 
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You are trying, but badly failing, to pull a tu cuoque on me.
I did not ask you if very fine people "support the use of threats and violence" on the Nazi side.

I asked if "very fine people" march alongside overtly nazi white supremacists.

My straight answer to your question, by the way, is simple: No.
Lol. If white supremacists organize a march against global warming, does that make anyone who shows up to protest global warming a nazi sympathizer?

But if you ask: Do very fine people march against Nazi white supremacist scum when miltant distractors are also there? Then the answer is equally simple: Yes.

I see that you have no moral compass, and are thus unable to answer ethical questions, which reduces you to have become a nazi enabler.

So again, good night.
Your moral compass seems to have become demagnetized.

If people joing a cause that is also joined by people you detest, then they are not good people. If people join a cause that you care about, however, then the detestable people who are there just happen to be there and that's okay. It's a very selective application of ethics you've got.

You would by lying, while it is perfectly true that this rally was, in fact, organized by White Supremacist scum, the invitations were overty nazi style, and everything they did and shouted there was overtly nazi.
Who cares if it's a lie? You've clearly established that association with Nazis, no matter the cause, is sufficient to rob any person of any claim to goodness. Anyone who shows up to anything that has been strongly enough associated with Nazis is a bad person, in your view of morality. Therefore, the mere association of a topic with nazis becomes an immensely powerful political tool.

It's amazing how powerful shame can be in coercing groupthink through threat of ostracism and condemnation. I mean, it's not like McCarthyism was bad thing, right?
 
Depends on whether they're smart enough to separate the cause of the rally from the beliefs of the people who organized it.

How about an ISIS-sponored rally for a case you believe in? Would you go to that? Or a NAMBLA rally for a cause you believed in? Would you go to that?

Is there ever a point where you would say to yourself Maybe I should find another way to support this cause? or maybe even Perhaps I should rethink the causes I believe in if they align me with such despicable people?

Your 'clever' little edit did not go unnoticed.

I literally quoted you saying the very thing you're claiming I cleverly edited.
 
It is if you're going to make the asinine argument the people other than white nationalists would attend a white nationalist rally. But your concession is noted.

It's as if you're going to make the asinine argument that it was a white nationalist rally, as opposed to a rally for the preservation of a statue that was organized by white nationalists.
 
Exactly! I am glad you get it! :)

Well, I guess it's nice to have your confirmation that my virtue signalling was insufficiently rabid to keep me from being shamed by you.

The third tu cuoque that fails badly.

I desperately hope you understand that it was NOT a tu quoque argument.
 
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How do you define what goal is morally acceptable? Are you certain that your assumption of morality is universal and objective? You have just said almost exactly what I said you said, and yet you claim that's not what you said:


What exactly is the meaningful difference between those two statements?


No of course you didn't - you didn't extend that courtesy to others. You've withheld that role to yourself alone. As long as phiwum believes it is a good cause, then it's okay. Whether other people agree with phiwum is irrelevant - their beliefs don't matter, only phiwum's belief matters.


Nazis are fine as long as they take no action. I don't give a crap what they believe. I give enormous craps about what they do. They can think whatever ridiculous and horrifying thing they want. I don't care what they believe any more than I care that people believe that women are inferior to men, or that babies would make really kitchy purses, or that dogs are yummy for dinner. As soon as they engage in an action that is directly causes harm to another person, that's a different story. As soon as they start infringing on the rights of other people, action is appropriate.

But I don't give a crap *why* they're infringing on someone else's rights. I care that they have done so. It could be because they're stupid bigots. It could be because the voices in their head said to. It could be because the color green sends them into a rage. I don't care. I care about the action.

And excusing the infringement of other people's rights because you don't like the things they think is inexcusable to me.


There is a lot to respond to here. Part of the issue is that I think I haven't been clear previously, so let me clarify.

No, I don't think that being violent towards Nazis that don't act on their beliefs is morally acceptable. I think that such violence, however, is less bad than violence motivated by racism.

Second, I don't claim that violence for a good goal is always justified. It rather depends on a comparison of the goal with the violence done. Shooting a shoplifter isn't justified, whereas shooting a maniac threatening the lives of innocents obviously is justified.

Third, I don't claim to be infallible when it comes to moral judgments. At this point in our conversation, I am merely describing some moral intuitions that I have.

Finally, you seem to have a moral relativist position, if I understand you correctly. If so, I don't see the point of this conversation. If morality comes down to nothing more than personal opinions, then moral argument is pointless. Indeed, why should a relativist be arguing over whether violence against Nazis is acceptable or not? At best, you can state your opinion, but there are no reasons you could provide so that someone who disagrees would concede the point.
 

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