Ed Dueling protests spark state of emergency in Virginia.

Argumemnon said:
Well that sure answers some of our resident right-wingers request for examples of right-wing violence.
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https://antifainternational.tumblr....you-antifa-guys-are-actually-more-hateful-and

you antifa guys are actually more hateful and violent than any neo nazi group in the 21st century. its *********** disgusting and you should be branded as terrorists just as much as the KKK
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We’d usually just block you, Anon, but we’re going to use your message as a reminder of where the violence is coming from in 2017. Off the top of our heads, here’s what the year has looked like so far:
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JoeBentley said:
Listen I get the invoking a "slippery slope" is one those go to pieces of argumentatives, something that is so broad it is true enough to some degree that it is never technically "wrong" in a discussion.

But we can't let that concept lock us in place as a society, terrified of ever moving in any direction lest we "take it too far."

Wherever the point of no-return is in the balance between our freedoms and our safeties I'm comfortable with it being on the other side of the Nazis.
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Not me. The Supreme Court has decided, quite plausibly, that political speech gets more protection than other kinds of speech. Nazis are a political group. Loathsome as their speech may be, the fact is that one of the primary aims of freedom of speech is to allow disparate voices to engage politically.
 
Childlike Empress said:
Yup, but now they have a real "denial of service" problem as nobody wants to provide them DNS service. Google refused as well and at the moment dailystormer.com is offline (but I guess the server is still on). :D
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No DNS means screwed indeed :)

Meanwhile, a message from Donetsk to Charlottesville from someone who thinks US anti-fascists should care more about what their government still supports in the world than about a bunch of pathetic anime nazis:
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That's assuming they don't are about that. Maybe they're just powerless to do something about it, but are not powerless to do something about the nazis where they live. Getting into a debate about who has the most bad-ass nazis seems to be pointless. Pathetic anime nazis as they may be, they are still nazis and they do kill, so if you can do something about it then why wouldn't you?

Message from the Raqqa front as well btw:

#antifascist solidarity from Kurdish women fighters on the #Raqqa front with #Charlottesville in honour of the martyr Heather Heyer
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phiwum said:
Not me. The Supreme Court has decided, quite plausibly, that political speech gets more protection than other kinds of speech. Nazis are a political group. Loathsome as their speech may be, the fact is that one of the primary aims of freedom of speech is to allow disparate voices to engage politically.
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Well they sure engaged that Heather woman, and that black guy with the poles, can't deny that.
 
caveman1917 said:
That's assuming they don't are about that.
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I share the impression that "the left" in the US very rarely goes against the propaganda line in international affairs. Even on Venezuela you have a lot of "understanding" for the fascist mobs in the street. And in the case of Ukraine it is extremely rare - he mentions some "left" celebrity who plays the cuddly-rebels-against-evil-Putin card, while the reality of what is going on there is just as shockingly vile as the paragraph I quoted describes.

But yeah, of course it doesn't have to or shouldn't be either-or.
 
Childlike Empress said:
I share the impression that "the left" in the US very rarely goes against the propaganda line in international affairs.
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True. But there's the confounding problem that liberals in the US consider themselves as "leftists" so when some American says "I'm a leftist" they're more likely a liberal rather than a leftist.

Even on Venezuela you have a lot of "understanding" for the fascist mobs in the street. And in the case of Ukraine it is extremely rare - he mentions some "left" celebrity who plays the cuddly-rebels-against-evil-Putin card, while the reality of what is going on there is just as shockingly vile as the paragraph I quoted describes.
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Yes, which is also expected if you understand an American saying "I'm a leftist" as meaning "I'm a liberal."
 
phiwum said:
Not me. The Supreme Court has decided, quite plausibly, that political speech gets more protection than other kinds of speech. Nazis are a political group. Loathsome as their speech may be, the fact is that one of the primary aims of freedom of speech is to allow disparate voices to engage politically.
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I don't disagree. The government should not do anything to to prevent the Nazis from marching. I agree that they can do that.

I also support counter-protesters being there to counter-protest, mess them up, and otherwise disrupt their nonsense. Not the government, but citizens.

And if things get violent, and were a counter-protester to, say, punch one of them, it wouldn't bother me if the police didn't bother with it. It also wouldn't bother me if the police arrested them. And when they went to court, and the Judge asks, "Did you do it?" they can say, "You goddamn right I punched that ************ square in the mouth. In fact, bring him here and let me do it again!"

Let the court deal with that. Send them to jail for punching a Nazi. Sure, no objection here. Just make sure it's clear that's what's happening. When a parent says, "I was willing to go to jail as opposed to listen to Nazis," tell me again how that's a bad thing?

The government has done it's job. It's protected the right of the Nazis to speak. But the message is clear.

Arrest everyone who kicks the **** out of Nazis. Absolutely. I hope there are a lot of arrests.
 
caveman1917 said:
Well they sure engaged that Heather woman, and that black guy with the poles, can't deny that.
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Do you have a point?

You do realize that there are laws against those acts already, right? Those aren't the sort of thing protected by the First Amendment.

I'm also not opposed to preemptively cancelling events that are very probable to end in violence. Public safety matters. That is different than not allowing Nazis to speak because of their political views.
 
phiwum said:
Do you have a point?

You do realize that there are laws against those acts already, right? Those aren't the sort of thing protected by the First Amendment.

I'm also not opposed to preemptively cancelling events that are very probable to end in violence. Public safety matters. That is different than not allowing Nazis to speak because of their political views.
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sure it is, it is a hecklers veto
 
pgwenthold said:
I don't disagree. The government should not do anything to to prevent the Nazis from marching. I agree that they can do that.
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When the Nazi's didn't follow their own plan as they didn't in virginia when can their march be stopped? This was the outcome they wanted and the cops were to scared to treat them like those evil people who suggest killing blacks is wrong.
 
pgwenthold said:
I don't disagree. The government should not do anything to to prevent the Nazis from marching. I agree that they can do that.

I also support counter-protesters being there to counter-protest, mess them up, and otherwise disrupt their nonsense. Not the government, but citizens.

And if things get violent, and were a counter-protester to, say, punch one of them, it wouldn't bother me if the police didn't bother with it. It also wouldn't bother me if the police arrested them. And when they went to court, and the Judge asks, "Did you do it?" they can say, "You goddamn right I punched that ************ square in the mouth. In fact, bring him here and let me do it again!"

Let the court deal with that. Send them to jail for punching a Nazi. Sure, no objection here. Just make sure it's clear that's what's happening. When a parent says, "I was willing to go to jail as opposed to listen to Nazis," tell me again how that's a bad thing?

The government has done it's job. It's protected the right of the Nazis to speak. But the message is clear.

Arrest everyone who kicks the **** out of Nazis. Absolutely. I hope there are a lot of arrests.
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I'm not so keen to cheer on violence against Nazis or anyone else. Seems to me that violence tends to escalate.

A lot of people here claim that the car running into the crowd was a terrorist act and it surely might be so. It might also be that the driver, a loose screw and a despicable person to begin with, got his ass kicked in an earlier skirmish and sought revenge by ramming people with his car. Still a damned terrible act, but not quite what I'd call terrorism (a minor semantic point that we needn't quibble over).

Of course, so far, I've no idea what led to the final event. Just idle speculation on my part, but I think it's a perfectly plausible story to illustrate how throwing punches can lead to horrible outcomes, even if the recipient of the punch deserves it.

(For clarity's sake, I am not alleging that the counterprotesters threw the first punches. I don't really know who threw the first punches, but in this particular event, I don't really think it matters much either.)
 
phiwum said:
Do you have a point?

You do realize that there are laws against those acts already, right? Those aren't the sort of thing protected by the First Amendment.

I'm also not opposed to preemptively cancelling events that are very probable to end in violence. Public safety matters. That is different than not allowing Nazis to speak because of their political views.
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But who gets to make that call? You assume it would be someone like yourself, but as I see it there are not many folks like that in government.

This is why you need to think before you promote an idea, racist idiots would love your idea to gain traction, they would use it to shut down people left right and center.

When you promote a new political idea you are throwing a weapon in the middle of a bar brawl, it's usually a good idea to make sure your people can use it better than than the other side before doing so.
 
phiwum said:
I'm not so keen to cheer on violence against Nazis or anyone else. Seems to me that violence tends to escalate.
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I'm older now and am resolutely in favour of non-violent protest/counter-protest. In my youth however I was involved in a number of scuffles with neo-Nazis and regret none of them.
 
ponderingturtle said:
When the Nazi's didn't follow their own plan as they didn't in virginia when can their march be stopped? This was the outcome they wanted and the cops were to scared to treat them like those evil people who suggest killing blacks is wrong.
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What happens when you seems an armed but severely outnumbered force against someone? That's right you just armed a bunch of nazis.

Think outside the box not everything is done based on race.
 
The Don said:
I'm older now and am resolutely in favour of non-violent protest/counter-protest. In my youth however I was involved in a number of scuffles with neo-Nazis and regret none of them.
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I'm in the same boat.

It's like right around the time my political views matured the rest of the world wanted to go back to high school morality.

But I mean on the other hand look at all the progres these attitudes have made. .. oh wait.
 
sadhatter said:
What happens when you seems an armed but severely outnumbered force against someone? That's right you just armed a bunch of nazis.

Think outside the box not everything is done based on race.
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No the nazi's were smart enough to have enough heavily armed members to intimidate the police out of action. Black lives matters clearly needs to have more open carry protests.

And any way the cops love these guys why would they want to stop their march just because they violated the terms of said protest? Keeping to such things is for the untermensch.
 
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