Ed Dueling protests spark state of emergency in Virginia.

ponderingturtle said:
WWII?
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That is one case, but from one case doesn't follow all cases. The claim was universal - "Fascists only understand violence. Any strategy to defeat them that doesn't involve violence is doomed to failure."

I would like evidence for its universal status and your example is not universal.
 
Eddie Dane said:
a. There is a first amendment issue at play. They should not be banned from holding events. Maybe not where and where they choose, but it should be allowed. Legal principles and all that.
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This harkens back to the ACLU, with at least some Jewish lawyers, defending the rights of Nazis to march through Skokie, IL through a largely Jewish neighborhood.

https://www.aclu.org/other/aclu-history-taking-stand-free-speech-skokie

Freedom of speech is a core principle that needs to be defended, no matter how abhorrent the speech.
 
Fast Eddie B said:
This harkens back to the ACLU, with at least some Jewish lawyers, defending the rights of Nazis to march through Skokie, IL through a largely Jewish neighborhood.

https://www.aclu.org/other/aclu-history-taking-stand-free-speech-skokie

Freedom of speech is a core principle that needs to be defended, no matter how abhorrent the speech.
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I'm pretty shocked how many people (not here per se) are willing to drop liberal principles and adherence to freedom of speech.

I'd rather be angered by racists than lose freedom of speech. (not that I have it, I'm Dutch)

That includes on social media. Reddit, Facebook, Twitter, Youtube are all clamping down on right-wing ideologues.

And as angry as I get about all the racism (anti-Semitism is everywhere now!), I rather not deprive them of a platform. Also as it feeds directly into their narrative about the Jews controlling the media and shutting criticism of Jews down.

OTOH:
I can see the other side of this issue. Germany has experience with this stuff and is very willing to keep it down.

The Rwandan genocide was preceded by years of anti-Tutsi radio shows. Like much of the current racist memes and jokes, the radio shows were comical and ironic. Even Tutsi's listened to them and had a laugh at their own expense. Dehumanising people is dangerous.

We walk a fine line.
 
ponderingturtle said:
How dare people call nazi's racist!
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Maybe if republicans learned to call it out, instead of throwing a hissy fit when anyone else openly cheering on racist murders, their party wouldn't be in such a miserable state. Hell, folks like Ben Shapiro, Glenn Beck, and every other primary candidate, tried to warn y'all, but most of you said "we'll take the hateful, buffoonish reality show host".

(Also, Hillary Clinton, myself on this board, and every black woman in America told you, too)
 
Eddie Dane said:
I'm pretty shocked how many people (not here per se) are willing to drop liberal principles and adherence to freedom of speech.

I'd rather be angered by racists than lose freedom of speech. (not that I have it, I'm Dutch)
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YOu're also likely white.

My family is black. Our history with groups of white supremacists is...far less pleasant, shall we say...
 
Mumbles said:
YOu're also likely white.

My family is black. Our history with groups of white supremacists is...far less pleasant, shall we say...
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And my family is Jewish. Our history with Nazis is...also far less the pleasant, shall we say...

But again, there's the expression that light is the best disinfectant.

My ex-wife thought Nazis should not be allowed to march. I invoked the slippery slope and asked who would keep the list of groups "allowed" to march. Would it include John Birch Society? Young Republicans? She generously offered to be the one to make and maintain the list.
 
Mumbles said:
Maybe if republicans learned to call it out, instead of throwing a hissy fit when anyone else openly cheering on racist murders, their party wouldn't be in such a miserable state. Hell, folks like Ben Shapiro, Glenn Beck, and every other primary candidate, tried to warn y'all, but most of you said "we'll take the hateful, buffoonish reality show host".

(Also, Hillary Clinton, myself on this board, and every black woman in America told you, too)
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And of course calling Nazi's deplorable is worse than being a nazi.
 
Fast Eddie B said:
My ex-wife thought Nazis should not be allowed to march. I invoked the slippery slope and asked who would keep the list of groups "allowed" to march. Would it include John Birch Society? Young Republicans? She generously offered to be the one to make and maintain the list.
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Listen I get the invoking a "slippery slope" is one those go to pieces of argumentatives, something that is so broad it is true enough to some degree that it is never technically "wrong" in a discussion.

But we can't let that concept lock us in place as a society, terrified of ever moving in any direction lest we "take it too far."

Wherever the point of no-return is in the balance between our freedoms and our safeties I'm comfortable with it being on the other side of the Nazis.
 
Mumbles said:
Maybe if republicans learned to call it out, instead of throwing a hissy fit when anyone else openly cheering on racist murders, their party wouldn't be in such a miserable state. Hell, folks like Ben Shapiro, Glenn Beck, and every other primary candidate, tried to warn y'all, but most of you said "we'll take the hateful, buffoonish reality show host".

(Also, Hillary Clinton, myself on this board, and every black woman in America told you, too)
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The thing is, that from a Liberal standpoint, the GOP is in miserable shape, but from a GOP standpoint, they are absolutely where they want to be:

  • A (nominally) Republican President in the White House
  • A majority in the Senate
  • A majority in the House
  • Control of SCOTUS with a real likelihood that they could have a 7-2 split for a generation or more
  • Control of the vast majoirty of state legislatures and governorships

If that is miserable shape then I don't want to see good shape - and they'e got there by pandering to religious extremists, Tea Party "nutjobs" and white supremacists. If they don't continue to do that then the whole house of cards could come tumbling down (although I suspect that even if there was less pandering, those three constituencies would still turn out in force for the GOP).

There is no good reason for Republicans to call out racism and every reason for them to at least tacitly support it. :mad: :(
 
ponderingturtle said:
And of course calling Nazi's deplorable is worse than being a nazi.
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Yeah, it's amazing how we have to tap dance around to not offend the sensibilities of the "we love Trump because he tells it how it is and isn't politically correct" crowd.
 
Delphic Oracle said:
Plus anyone making that argument can now be dismissed as "siding with the nazis."
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Anyone making that argument has been considered collaborating with nazis for decades. The only question is whether they do it because of being deluded fools or because they really do support nazis and just use the "free speech argument" to further their cause. I'm guessing there's instances of both in the thread.
 
Fast Eddie B said:
And that reminds me there do exist times where the "ignore" function is appropriate.
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Sure, makes sense you would choose to ignore the role played by that helicopter-armed gang in imposing your dear rulers' slavery system, given the rest of your collaborationist positions in the thread.
 
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Mumbles said:
YOu're also likely white.

My family is black. Our history with groups of white supremacists is...far less pleasant, shall we say...
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And?

Trying to make the conversation uncomfortable doesn't make your point.
 
caveman1917 said:
Did you miss CE's last post? Definitely "inside job".
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Yup, but now they have a real "denial of service" problem as nobody wants to provide them DNS service. Google refused as well and at the moment dailystormer.com is offline (but I guess the server is still on). :D

Meanwhile, a message from Donetsk to Charlottesville from someone who thinks US anti-fascists should care more about what their government still supports in the world than about a bunch of pathetic anime nazis:

Aleksandr Gontar said:
[...] Kids, come into “The Ukraine”, we will show you Nazis. Real ones. Who kill people… kill massively, proceeding from the racial theory. They kill in savage ways like the SS did in the 40’s. We will show you a whole State that erects monuments to the ideologists and performers of the Holocaust, of Jewish riots, of the genocide of Poles. Who sweep away monuments to the liberators of mankind from Nazism. A State with a Nazi “ministry of truth“, repressions against dissent, promotion of racial hatred in schools, on TV, in children’s books. A State in which the Ministry of Internal Affairs supervises a website that incites the committing of murder of unreliable citizens, openly publishing all their personal information as well as members of their families. [...]
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And the father of the killed lady has forgiven the killer of his daughter. Impressive statement. Hats off to the man.
 
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