Transgender man gives birth

[Aepervius]

I'm straight, and I didn't much enjoy it either. That said, I did not react violently. Pushing someone away is perfectly fine. We are talking about physically assaulting someone to the point of murder.

I am a melow guy, not to say slightly cowardly. Somebody less mellow could have reacted far more violentely. Again that does not excuse it, but that explain it.

You keep missing the point that such an intimate core, the reaction will be emotional NOT rational.

 

[uke2se]

I am a melow guy, not to say slightly cowardly. Somebody less mellow could have reacted far more violentely. Again that does not excuse it, but that explain it.

You keep missing the point that such an intimate core, the reaction will be emotional NOT rational.

Someone who can't control their emotions to the point of murdering someone for failing to disclose their birth gender ought to be locked up for good.

 

[Belz...]

It certainly is

He can't strawman himself.

 

[xjx388]

Are you saying trans-people should inform their dates that they are trans or risk being murdered?

Don't know how you'd conclude that from what I said. I just think people should be up front and honest in their relationships.

If you go on a date and never discover that the person you are dating is trans, is that a problem for you? Maybe being trans is something personal that is only disclosed if things get a bit more serious?

I think it's a problem for most people. This is part of the problem with the whole, "Transmen are men," type of argument. Most people are going to differentiate between a transman and a man in a dating scenario.

Or, how about we stick to what people in this thread are arguing? I have no inclination to defend what random people on the internet are saying.

This thread is in social issues. I don't think we need to limit arguments to only what people have said in this thread when the larger sociocultural context is important.

 

[uke2se]

Don't know how you'd conclude that from what I said. I just think people should be up front and honest in their relationships.

I think it's a problem for most people. This is part of the problem with the whole, "Transmen are men," type of argument. Most people are going to differentiate between a transman and a man in a dating scenario.

This thread is in social issues. I don't think we need to limit arguments to only what people have said in this thread when the larger sociocultural context is important.

Well, in that case, I agree. I think a trans-person ought to inform a date of their transition. Not doing so would be impolite. Of course, they may well have a good reason for not doing so, and one shouldn't react violently if one found one had been dating a trans-person without prior knowledge.

That's my position.

 

[xjx388]

How does the fist paragraph lead to the second? That's some mental gymnastics right there.

Do you Think we should "start up" (as if it ever went away) the conversion therapy again? Do you think that's a good idea? I'd like to see you defend it.

If sexual attraction is innate and not learned, then we shouldn't be surprised (and accuse them of being closet homosexuals) when a straight man's attraction towards a woman goes away when they discover that they are actually a transwoman.

If sexual attraction is a learned behavior, then maybe we can "work through" our attraction issues and learn to be attracted to trans people. If that's the case, then maybe conversion therapy can work!

Obviously, I don't think conversion therapy can work. Sexual attraction is innate.

 

[ponderingturtle]

If sexual attraction is innate and not learned, then we shouldn't be surprised (and accuse them of being closet homosexuals) when a straight man's attraction towards a woman goes away when they discover that they are actually a transwoman.

Of course and they would be attracted to a trans man when they learn his status. As he is really a woman straight guys should be fine with dating him.

 

[ponderingturtle]

For dating how much is it the individuals response to disclose all possible things that could be deal breakers, vs how much is it your job to disclose your deal breakers up front?

If dating transgender people is right out make it a point of it.

 

[Porpoise of Life]

For dating how much is it the individuals response to disclose all possible things that could be deal breakers, vs how much is it your job to disclose your deal breakers up front?

If dating transgender people is right out make it a point of it.

Every first date you feel compelled to say "Excuse me, but I really have to ask you if you used to be a dude.", will also be a last date...

 

[xjx388]

Of course and they would be attracted to a trans man when they learn his status. As he is really a woman straight guys should be fine with dating him.

I know you are being sarcastic in trying to make a point, but it's really simple. Most straight men are not attracted to people who are men or have all the outward appearances of being men. I say most because humans have a wide variety of sexual attractions. But on average, dudes don't want to be with dude-like humans.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Every first date you feel compelled to say "Excuse me, but I really have to ask you if you used to be a dude.", will also be a last date...

That is what dating profiles are for.

No Republicans
No Trans
No Catholic

and so on.

ETA: Many people refuse to date bisexuals, what is the appropriate response to finding out that someone you have been intimate with lied to you about something like that?

 

[ponderingturtle]

I know you are being sarcastic in trying to make a point, but it's really simple. Most straight men are not attracted to people who are men or have all the outward appearances of being men. I say most because humans have a wide variety of sexual attractions. But on average, dudes don't want to be with dude-like humans.

The whole thing is that the people most arguing against treating people in accordance with their gender are the same ones who object when people are treated as their sex.

See all the reactions to this

http://www.cnn.com/2017/02/27/us/texas-transgender-wrestler-trnd-hold/index.html

And the discussion here

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=317295

The general desire is to get rid of transgender people because dealing with them as people is far too hard.

 

[Roboramma]

That is what dating profiles are for.

No Republicans
No Trans
No Catholic

and so on.

ETA: Many people refuse to date bisexuals, what is the appropriate response to finding out that someone you have been intimate with lied to you about something like that?

Many of us still meet and date people in the real world instead of online, and thus don't have access to dating profiles.

But I think that finding these things out is generally up to the person who wants to know. As long as the other person isn't actively dishonest about anything, I don't think there's any responsibility to be overly explicit. People are good at figuring things out. Those who don't want to date Catholics will probably find ways to ask about religion, even if only tangentially, in order to figure out if you are Catholic or not.

 

[3point14]

If you think it's a valid explanation, you grant that the murderer did have a valid reason for his murder. There's a small step from that to justifying the murder. Hell, you even assign part of the blame for the murder on the victim!

Well, no.

A valid explanation for the bloke robbing the bank is that he wanted the money. It's an explanation, not an excuse or a valid reason. If we're not even allowed to look for explanations, there's little chance, I think, of change for the better - in any area.

The reason I'm so disgusted by this line of reasoning is because, as ponderingturtle showed, this actually happens.

 

[Belz...]

But I think that finding these things out is generally up to the person who wants to know. As long as the other person isn't actively dishonest about anything, I don't think there's any responsibility to be overly explicit.

I think that's true of some things, but since part of meeting up with potential mates is getting to know them, I think it's important to tell them the really crucial bits, and I think "I used to be a man" is very crucial.

 

[3point14]

You may not like it, but outright lie and then expect a polite "you are not my type let me get my clothes and get out of the bedroom" is the most stupid thing I ever heard. Human react with rationality in some situation and with emotion in otehr. Play with their emotion in an intimate situation and outright lie to them , and you should expect a humane reaction, and yes that include violence.

That is if you are asking me if a man caught being cuckholded by his wife in flagrnat delis, and getting violent with both , the wife and the other man has no blame. They have no blame for the murder, the husband has 100% of the blame, but they are not *blameless* for the whole situation, sorry.

I don't believe being angry is ever any justification for violence. Those with too little self control cannot use 'I was really angry' as an excuse. Controlling emotional reactions is what differentiates adults from toddlers.

 

[uke2se]

Well, no.

A valid explanation for the bloke robbing the bank is that he wanted the money. It's an explanation, not an excuse or a valid reason. If we're not even allowed to look for explanations, there's little chance, I think, of change for the better - in any area.

The explanation for someone murdering a trans-gendered person isn't that he discovered that the trans-gendered person was trans-gendered. The explanation is that the murderer either couldn't control his emotions to the point where he murders someone, or that the murderer is a vile hateful bigot who thinks trans-gendered people shouldn't exist - or some variation thereof.

A normal person discovering that his/her sexual interest is trans will not react violently.

 

[3point14]

The explanation for someone murdering a trans-gendered person isn't that he discovered that the trans-gendered person was trans-gendered. The explanation is that the murderer either couldn't control his emotions to the point where he murders someone, or that the murderer is a vile hateful bigot who thinks trans-gendered people shouldn't exist - or some variation thereof.

A normal person discovering that his/her sexual interest is trans will not react violently.

So?

It's still an explanation - that's what happened - this individual's inability to control themselves like an adult is still the explanation for what happened.

Why on earth are you connoting 'explain' with 'excuse'?



ETA: If we're not allowed to even look for the reasons bad people do bad things I think the odds of getting bad people to stop doing bad things drop alarmingly.

Explaining why things happen is the first step, I think, to reducing incidents of the undesired nature.

 

[uke2se]

So?

It's still an explanation - that's what happened - this individual's inability to control themselves like an adult is still the explanation for what happened.

No, it's not. It doesn't explain the murder, because cannot be expected that someone would murder someone in that situation. It's a bit like saying that the explanation for the first World War was that Franz Ferdinand went to Sarajevo.

It lays part of the blame for the murder on the victim, as Aepervius explicitly said.

 

[3point14]

No, it's not. It doesn't explain the murder, because cannot be expected that someone would murder someone in that situation. It's a bit like saying that the explanation for the first World War was that Franz Ferdinand went to Sarajevo.

It lays part of the blame for the murder on the victim, as Aepervius explicitly said.

Can I just check then, that you believe that we should not look for or asses reasons why people do things of this nature?