US Citizen Otto Warmbier, returned from North Korea, has died

[ponderingturtle]

So then they act with impunity. They really are more powerful than America.

No we act with impunity too. Kidnapping and torturing innoncent people due to minor mistakes of identity rather like in Brazil(the movie).

These things happen is all.

 

[Venom]

And any civilian casualties will just be an......Ooooopsie!

Potentially less bloody than a full scale revolution, which, at this point probably wont happen anyway.

To come to think of it, a terrorist group probably could not operate effectively in NK

 

[Vixen]

Some mistakes have lethal consequences, see the darwin awards.

I don't buy it. I don't subscribe to the idea, 'He knew North Korea had tough laws. He should have abided by them.'

Even if technically he's guilty, the punishment is grossly disproportionate and contravenes international human rights. Trying to ascertain whether Warmbier did or did not steal the poster is playing to North Korea's unreasonable agenda.

At the most it should have been a fine. Or if you want to make an example of the guy, give him three months and then deport him.

 

[Vixen]

While not wanting to defend NK. We do not actually know what happened. The type of brain injury from limited information available sounds like the consequence of oxygen starvation. Possible causes could be attempted suicide by hanging, badly performed waterboarding (a similar death occurred under US interrogation), badly vented heater with consequent carbon monoxide poisoning. What is clear is there is no evidence of actual physical trauma - he was not beaten about the head to cause the injury.

Seems unlikely, as North Korea would have been quick to claim it was self harm.

If a healthy young guy of 22 had a cardiac arrest, or some other trauma to his respiratory organs (to cause brain tissue loss), then we are highly pushed to understand how and why.

 

[Vixen]

I hate to be harsh, but isn't visiting North Korea a bit like climbing Everest?

You do it because it's there. You acknowledge that it's dangerous and some other travelers have not come back, but that's part of what makes 'I went to North Korea' a boast rather than the beginning of a holiday story.

If a travel agency is offering it, people will be buying the tours. I recall an acquaintance who was over the moon at getting a fabulously cut price holiday package to ... Beirut. We had to gently tell him it was a war zone (at the time).

What was that Dead Kennedy's number...?

 

[Vixen]

Edited by kmortis: 

Removed previously moderated content and response to same

It was the Obama administration which tried to make the Warmbier family shut up about his imprisonment, and the Trump admin which pushed to get him released. And there were some lefty outlets who basically said he got what he deserved:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/la-sha/on-the-revocation-of-whit_b_9531122.html
"Yeah, I’m willing to bet my last dollar that he was aware of the political climate in that country, but privilege is a hell of a drug. The high of privilege told him that North Korea’s history of making examples out of American citizens who dare challenge their rigid legal system in any way was no match for his alabaster American privilege.
...
I’m a black woman though. The hopeless fear Warmbier is now experiencing is my daily reality living in a country where white men like him are willfully oblivious to my suffering even as they are complicit in maintaining the power structures which ensure their supremacy at my expense."

http://www.salon.com/2016/03/02/thi...rea/?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=socialflow
“North Korea isn’t a playground for college pranks, Kim Jong-un isn’t a fictional character from a Seth Rogen movie, and Pyongyang isn’t some game you play with Coors Light and Solo cups,” Wilmore continued. “It’s just tough for me to have much sympathy for this guy and his crocodile tears.”

I have never read such OTT hyperbole.

 

[Vixen]

What's cruel and unusual in the World is pretty much kid-glove treatment in NK.

If you offered me sole ownership of Apple I wouldn't set foot in NK.

Some guy who owned a mini-cab company near me was caught taking in 2kg of heroin at the Chinese border. He was executed, and this caused a diplomatic incident between UK and China.

Punishment has to be proportionate, even in countries with little concern for human rights.

 

[ponderingturtle]

I don't buy it. I don't subscribe to the idea, 'He knew North Korea had tough laws. He should have abided by them.'

Even if technically he's guilty, the punishment is grossly disproportionate and contravenes international human rights. Trying to ascertain whether Warmbier did or did not steal the poster is playing to North Korea's unreasonable agenda.

At the most it should have been a fine. Or if you want to make an example of the guy, give him three months and then deport him.

And in the US we cut water and kill people because they are mentally ill. This really isn't a big deal. They even promoted the sheriff in charge of that gave him national office.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Some guy who owned a mini-cab company near me was caught taking in 2kg of heroin at the Chinese border. He was executed, and this caused a diplomatic incident between UK and China.

Punishment has to be proportionate, even in countries with little concern for human rights.

Being a white person really doesn't offer you protection no matter where you go.

 

[3point14]

Some guy who owned a mini-cab company near me was caught taking in 2kg of heroin at the Chinese border. He was executed, and this caused a diplomatic incident between UK and China.

Punishment has to be proportionate, even in countries with little concern for human rights.

Isn't disproportionate punishment one of the signs of a country lacking in human rights legislation?


The bottom line, I'm afraid, is that regardless of 'should', North Korea can act with impunity in cases like this. North Korea have to do something bad enough for the rest of the world to be prepared to say "Shame about Seoul" and invade or carpet bomb.

Right up until that point, the North Korean leadership can do what they like, sadly.

I feel sorry for the boy, but I really do think anyone going to North Korea is making a foolish move in the first place - and no, not foolish enough to deserve this.

 

[Giz]

Punishment has to be proportionate, even in countries with little concern for human rights.

Presumably you mean "should be proportionate"

 

[dudalb]

Something which should have been done a long time ago.
No one is denying the kid was stupid, but these attempts to basically excuse North Korea de facto murder of the kid are truly disgusting. If it has reached the point where some on the left are sympathizing with Dear Leader then we are in trouble.

 

[dudalb]

And in the US we cut water and kill people because they are mentally ill. This really isn't a big deal. They even promoted the sheriff in charge of that gave him national office.

God, you are equating the US with North Korea????????????????????

Reminds me of those on the left who kept telling us during the 30's and 40's what a wonderful guy Uncle Joe Stalin was.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Something which should have been done a long time ago.
No one is denying the kid was stupid, but these attempts to basically excuse North Korea de facto murder of the kid are truly disgusting. If it has reached the point where some on the left are sympathizing with Dear Leader then we are in trouble.

It is the scorpion and the frog. We know the nature of north korea.

At least if it was something that earned a death sentence in Saudi Arabia he would have had a chance for diplomatic intervention if it was something like defecating on a Quran.

 

[ponderingturtle]

God, you are equating the US with North Korea????????????????????

I am saying people die in custody everywhere, why make this more than it is? It isn't a big deal when an american dies in custody due to poor treatment in the US so why is it a big deal in north korea where you expect that kind of thing?

Why are you not holding us to the high standard you are holding north korea to? We need to do better here. OF course a crazy dictatorship is a crazy dictatorship, but when we are doing the same things you are condemning them for it seems like you only care when they do it and not when good american cops kill innocent people.

And we can do things like reform the Milwaukee sheriff's department and send people to prison for killing people without starting a war that will kill at least hundreds of thousands.

 

[The Great Zaganza]

So then they act with impunity. They really are more powerful than America.

Like ISIS, North Korea has discovered the way to cancel the US military supremacy: act like it doesn't exist.
By not playing the game of "who's got the bigger gun" and instead just declare yourself the winner, these actors have taken away the power of threats: they can't be intimidated.

The only possible trick is to pretend to play along whilst undermining their support.

 

[dudalb]

So then they act with impunity. They really are more powerful than America.

Pretty Much, Yeah.
The US already has just about every economic sanction you can have in place against NK,(and we will probably put the last one in place with a Travel Ban)
and it has not impacted their behavior.
The only thing left is Military Action. And that would be long and incredibly bloody. Quick, clean, decpatation strikes work great in Tom Clancy novels, but don't work well in the real world.

If I were betting, I would bet that North Korea eventually will push it just too far, leaving the US no choice but Military action. But that does mean it is a desirable outcome.

 

[dudalb]

Like ISIS, North Korea has discovered the way to cancel the US military supremacy: act like it doesn't exist.
By not playing the game of "who's got the bigger gun" and instead just declare yourself the winner, these actors have taken away the power of threats: they can't be intimidated.

The only possible trick is to pretend to play along whilst undermining their support.

Of course the danger is that NK will feel emboldened by this approach ,and eventually push it too far with an aggression against South Korea that will leave the US no choice but Military response. There is no good solution to this.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Like ISIS, North Korea has discovered the way to cancel the US military supremacy: act like it doesn't exist.
By not playing the game of "who's got the bigger gun" and instead just declare yourself the winner, these actors have taken away the power of threats: they can't be intimidated.

The only possible trick is to pretend to play along whilst undermining their support.

And like north korea it makes a great vacation destination, and we would be shocked if anything happened to someone vacationing there got a little out of control.

ISIS also seems to be having a bit of a problem with american military in that they are being bombed by them daily and have been for years. I know we should never have given the Iraqi's back their sovereignty and kept it as a colony for a few hundred years. That would have been the solution.

 

[dudalb]

I am saying people die in custody everywhere, why make this more than it is? It isn't a big deal when an american dies in custody due to poor treatment in the US so why is it a big deal in north korea where you expect that kind of thing?

Why are you not holding us to the high standard you are holding north korea to? We need to do better here. OF course a crazy dictatorship is a crazy dictatorship, but when we are doing the same things you are condemning them for it seems like you only care when they do it and not when good american cops kill innocent people.

And we can do things like reform the Milwaukee sheriff's department and send people to prison for killing people without starting a war that will kill at least hundreds of thousands.

You do equate the US to NK. I think we are through here.