Paul Bethke vs the 613 Mitzvot

[Paul Bethke]

That is verse 32 in tanakh. Why do you not quote the next verse?

Jeremiah 31:33 (v34 in christian "old testament")



So, if the new covenant is in place now (as you say and the "new testament" says) then why are you trying to "teach"?

According to jeremiah, YHVH says that when the new covenant is in place no one (that includes you PB) will need to teach because everyone will already know.

The very fact that you are here trying to "teach" everyone, proves that you do not believe the new covenant is in place.

Either the "old covenant"/mitzvot (which you ignore) are still in place,

OR

There is now a "new covenant" in place which means

YOU SHOULD NOT BE TEACHING ANYONE.

You cannot have it both ways.

I quoted that relevant to the discussion—it appears that you do not know how this will be achieved.
Is not the key to KNOW, in order to become?
Jer 31:34 No longer will a man teach his neighbour, or a man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest," declares the LORD. "For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more."

Sin cannot be forgiven if there is no repentance, and repentance cannot take place if there is no Torah.

So does it not say--Jer 31:33 "This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after that time," declares the LORD. "I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people.
So, it is not a doing away with the Torah, but putting Yahweh’s laws in their mind and hearts.

It is also stated that the Torah will go out from Zion

Isaiah 2:3 Many peoples will come and say, "Come, let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob. He will teach us his ways, so that we may walk in his paths." The law will go out from Zion, the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

So the Law will be taught, and people will listen and obey—not like today—people listen, but do not obey.

Isa_6:9 He said, "Go and tell this people: "'Be ever hearing, but never understanding; be ever seeing, but never perceiving.'

It will be as David said at one stage in his life but later transgressed---Psa_119:11 I have hidden your word in my heart that I might not sin against you.

 

[Paul Bethke]

You said:



In normal words when something "NEW" replaces something "OLD", that means the old thing has been.......replaced.

Yes the OLD way to worship the Creator and the NEW way--the new is based on the old, and the new cannot be understood without the OLD.

So people have to be taught the OLD in order to understand the NEW.

The new Temple will be built on the site of the old, the new will have to replace the old.

 

[halleyscomet]

Yes the OLD way to worship the Creator and the NEW way--the new is based on the old, and the new cannot be understood without the OLD.

So people have to be taught the OLD in order to understand the NEW.

The new Temple will be built on the site of the old, the new will have to replace the old.

Thank you for providing yet ANOTHER example of your rank hypocrisy in rejecting the bulk fo the Mitzvot.

I find it hilarious that you wank on about how important vague categories of rules are, yet refuse to discuss any specifics beyond your myopic sex obsession.

I hope you never had a management position. I've worked with people who managed by such vague, too-high-level-to-be-useful dictates. They typically did this because they didn't know what the HELL they were talking about and were trying to hide that fact by being vague. It was always satisfying to see such morons crash and burn, which is probably why I find this thread amusing. Seeing you humiliate yourself, again and again, is entertaining.

You have no clue what you're on about, insist you actually know what you're on about and refuse to learn from the people who actually DO understand these topics.

 

[halleyscomet]

I quoted that relevant to the discussion—it appears that you do not know how this will be achieved.
Is not the key to KNOW, in order to become?

How about you try actually responding to her with something relevant, instead of an insult and a bunch of random Bible quotes?

Exodus 35:2

For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day shall be your holy day, a Sabbath of rest to the LORD. Whoever does any work on it must be put to death.

Now, I've asked you about your opinion on slavery, and you have yet to answer.

1 Peter 2:18: "Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to the good and gentle but also to the cruel."

Do you endorse slavery? The Bible does.

 

[Cosmic Yak]

At this stage there is no evidence, except the Scriptures, and I am told that the Scriptures in them self cannot be used as evidence--there has to be some external evidence--right??

Correct.
You have said twice now that you have no evidence for the existence of this Yahweh character. You cannot therefore call it as a witness.
Nor are you likely to persuade anyone that this character wants people to obey a long list of- in some cases- quite bizarre laws, all the time, except when it doesn't count and we don't have to.
Now, if you choose to obey some or all of those laws, that is your prerogative, but arbitrarily picking and choosing between them and then berating those who do not, seems a little hypocritical. Especially when the criteria you use for these choices is apparently known only to you, lurking as they do under the vague umbrella of "prophecy".

 

[halleyscomet]

 

[Paul Bethke]

Correct.
You have said twice now that you have no evidence for the existence of this Yahweh character. You cannot therefore call it as a witness.
Nor are you likely to persuade anyone that this character wants people to obey a long list of- in some cases- quite bizarre laws, all the time, except when it doesn't count and we don't have to.
Now, if you choose to obey some or all of those laws, that is your prerogative, but arbitrarily picking and choosing between them and then berating those who do not, seems a little hypocritical. Especially when the criteria you use for these choices is apparently known only to you, lurking as they do under the vague umbrella of "prophecy".

Correct.
You have said twice now that you have no evidence for the existence of this Yahweh character. You cannot therefore call it as a witness.
Nor are you likely to persuade anyone that this character wants people to obey a long list of- in some cases- quite bizarre laws, all the time, except when it doesn't count and we don't have to.
Now, if you choose to obey some or all of those laws, that is your prerogative, but arbitrarily picking and choosing between them and then berating those who do not, seems a little hypocritical. Especially when the criteria you use for these choices is apparently known only to you, lurking as they do under the vague umbrella of "prophecy".

There are many laws that are applicable to humanity today—but they are secondary to the Ten Commands—so if you pass the test of the Ten Commands then you can proceed to the other laws.

But not many people will pass the test of the Ten Commands.

 

[Zivan]

There are many laws that are applicable to humanity today—but they are secondary to the Ten Commands—so if you pass the test of the Ten Commands then you can proceed to the other laws.

But not many people will pass the test of the Ten Commands.

The "Ten Commands" are part of the "OLD" which you say has been "replaced" so why do you keep drooling on about it?

If the 613 mitzvot are not in place, then neither are the "Ten Commands" since they are INCLUDED in the 613-----which you say do NOT need to be followed.

STOP cherry picking

and

MAKE UP YOUR MIND!

 

[Zivan]

I quoted that relevant to the discussion—it appears that you do not know how this will be achieved.
Is not the key to KNOW, in order to become?
Jer 31:34 No longer will a man teach his neighbour, or a man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest," declares the LORD. "For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more."

No, it appears that you do not know or understand what you read. And you are completely clueless.

Jer 31:34 No longer will a man teach his neighbour, or a man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest," declares the LORD. "For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more." [/QUOTE]

So, if you think there is a "new covenant"....

STOP TEACHING

you are going against what YHVH says in the above verse.

 

[Paul Bethke]

How about you try actually responding to her with something relevant, instead of an insult and a bunch of random Bible quotes?

They are specific quotes, and there was no insult but merely a statement.

Now, I've asked you about your opinion on slavery, and you have yet to answer.
Do you endorse slavery? The Bible does.

It is not what I endorse, it is what is written—what do the nations say about slavery, there are many forms of slavery. I do not have any slaves.

But you are a slave as it is written---John_8:34 Jesus replied, "I tell you the truth, everyone who sins is a slave to sin.

Now how do we know what is sin—it is written in the Torah what is SIN---Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the Torah sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the Torah. For I would not have known about coveting if the Torah had not said, “You shall not covet.”

So today there should be no slaves, except those who SIN!!

 

[Zivan]

@PB

And do not repeat your "You do not understand prophecy" crap.

You repeat that BS because you cannot answer the questions.

Every time you say that, it proves to everyone you have no answers.

 

[halleyscomet]

So today there should be no slaves, except those who SIN!!

Saint Peter disagrees with you:

1 Peter 2:18: "Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to the good and gentle but also to the cruel."

You do not have slaves. Good. Do the Mitzvot about slaves still apply to people who DO own slaves? Remember, the Bible explicitly condones slavery and provides laws for the handling of slaves. The New Testament even advises slaves be subservient to their masters, as in the 1 Peter passage I quoted above.

 

[JayUtah]

There are many laws that are applicable to humanity today—but they are secondary to the Ten Commands—so if you pass the test of the Ten Commands then you can proceed to the other laws.

But not many people will pass the test of the Ten Commands.

Irrelevant. You claim perfect obedience to the mitzvot, so we can conclude that you also claim perfect obedience to the Ten Commandments and we can move on. You have further claimed that we must examine the mitzvot individually to determine what the required obedience is and then judge whether you obey it.

You seem reluctant to do that. Will you please engage your critics in the manner you suggested the engagement proceed?

 

[JayUtah]

So today there should be no slaves, except those who SIN!!

We're not talking about slavery as a metaphor for sin, and neither is the relevant mitzvah. Therefore please do not attempt to cloud the issue. While developed nations have abolished slavery as a matter of human rights, this is not true for all nations, nor does your opinion about whether slavery should or shouldn't exist bear on the tenet of the relevant mitzvah. Indenture, now as in Hebrew times, can be a perfectly serviceable method of employment so long as it follows certain rules such as those laid out in the relevant mitzvot. While it is true that the mitzvah in question is operative only for those who hold slaves, and while it is true you hold no slaves for whatever reason you give, will you at least comment on your obedience to it? How would you, for example, judge a friend yours who legally kept an indentured servant?

 

[Jodie]

I'm assuming you are ignoring me because you can't defend the biblical teachings for apostasy and how they might relate to your dogma. Know this, you are not doing the creator's work if you hope to curtail basic rights with violence based on laws. Faith is all that is needed, and that faith is a personal choice, it is not up to you to judge and meet out punishment based on your perception of another person's state of faith.

http://johnpavlovitz.com/2017/06/04/the-christians-making-atheists/


"No, the reason the Church soon will be teetering on the verge of extinction and irrelevance, will be because those entrusted to perpetuate the love of Jesus in the world, lost the plot so horribly, and gave the world no other option but to look elsewhere for goodness and purpose and truth. Soon these Christians will ask why humanity has rejected Jesus and we will remind them of these days, and assure them that they have not rejected Jesus at all—they just found no evidence of him in the Church."

 

[JayUtah]

I'm assuming you are ignoring me because you can't defend the biblical teachings for apostasy and how they might relate to your dogma.

Probably. Don't feel bad; you're not the first to try to call Paul Bethke to repentance. He's utterly convinced of his own moral and doctrinal perfection, and I'm sure you've read the delusional lengths his arguments have gone to support that conviction. The conclusion I and others have drawn is not surprising: there seem to be conditions in Mr Bethke's life that he has adjusted to by means of a homegrown system of pseudo-biblical condemnation, up to and including a revenge fantasy predicated on the end-times. But that's the other thread.

In this one we're challenging the literalism Mr Bethke professes. If one claims to be literally perfectly obedient, that would tend to preclude the real-world concessions more conscientious believers adopt to fit their religion into the practical constraints of the world. I don't oppose the practical revisions. I think that Christians and Jews who take a pragmatic approach to the mitzvot and/or the NT are generally better believers than people who claim perfection and then lie to themselves about their exceptions. Such self-deception does not form a rational basis from which to accuse others of apostasy. In a way of thinking, all believers are to some degree apostates -- just some are honest about it while others are not.

The reason I tend to get along with believers more if they're slightly apostate is that their apostasy has to do with reconciling the outward mechanics of church practice with the greater ideals taught in the various holy writs. Utah had its Pride parade yesterday, complete with a cadre of practicing heterosexual Mormons who have put in second place their church's teaching against homosexuality and instead embraced the much more important Christian ideal of loving one's neighbor as himself. It's comforting to see stuff like that. Then you see these vain and puffed up professions of perfect belief and you get the idea that St Paul was perhaps trying to convey when he talked about tinny cymbals, etc. Mr Bethke has mistaken unthinking mechanical obedience with true religion.

 

[Paul Bethke]

I'm assuming you are ignoring me because you can't defend the biblical teachings for apostasy and how they might relate to your dogma. Know this, you are not doing the creator's work if you hope to curtail basic rights with violence based on laws. Faith is all that is needed, and that faith is a personal choice, it is not up to you to judge and meet out punishment based on your perception of another person's state of faith.

I am not ignoring you as such, but there are so many posts so I only choose some—you are wrong about faith—faith is based on obedience to the Torah as Jesus taught. The Ten Commands are the pivotal structure of faith in the Creator. A person who has faith will not lie, steal and commit adultery. Jesus demonstrated this,

"No, the reason the Church soon will be teetering on the verge of extinction and irrelevance, will be because those entrusted to perpetuate the love of Jesus in the world, lost the plot so horribly, and gave the world no other option but to look elsewhere for goodness and purpose and truth. Soon these Christians will ask why humanity has rejected Jesus and we will remind them of these days, and assure them that they have not rejected Jesus at all—they just found no evidence of him in the Church."

That is not the way the Scriptures portray the truth---yes many will fall away, because they do not hold on to the commands of God.

True today there is no evidence of Jesus in the Church, because the Church has abandoned the teachings of Jesus, and Jesus has abandoned the Church as it is written.

Rev 3:15 I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other! So, because you are lukewarm—neither hot nor cold—I am about to spit you out of my mouth.

Mat 24:10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other,
Mat 24:11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people.
Mat 24:12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold,
Mat 24:13 but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.Mat 24:14 And this Gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the END will come.

So we are living in a time when the Church will be purged of all its heresies, and the truth will avail.

 

[Paul Bethke]

Probably. Don't feel bad; you're not the first to try to call Paul Bethke to repentance. He's utterly convinced of his own moral and doctrinal perfection, and I'm sure you've read the delusional lengths his arguments have gone to support that conviction. The conclusion I and others have drawn is not surprising: there seem to be conditions in Mr Bethke's life that he has adjusted to by means of a homegrown system of pseudo-biblical condemnation, up to and including a revenge fantasy predicated on the end-times. But that's the other thread.

In this one we're challenging the literalism Mr Bethke professes. If one claims to be literally perfectly obedient, that would tend to preclude the real-world concessions more conscientious believers adopt to fit their religion into the practical constraints of the world. I don't oppose the practical revisions. I think that Christians and Jews who take a pragmatic approach to the mitzvot and/or the NT are generally better believers than people who claim perfection and then lie to themselves about their exceptions. Such self-deception does not form a rational basis from which to accuse others of apostasy. In a way of thinking, all believers are to some degree apostates -- just some are honest about it while others are not.

The reason I tend to get along with believers more if they're slightly apostate is that their apostasy has to do with reconciling the outward mechanics of church practice with the greater ideals taught in the various holy writs. Utah had its Pride parade yesterday, complete with a cadre of practicing heterosexual Mormons who have put in second place their church's teaching against homosexuality and instead embraced the much more important Christian ideal of loving one's neighbor as himself. It's comforting to see stuff like that. Then you see these vain and puffed up professions of perfect belief and you get the idea that St Paul was perhaps trying to convey when he talked about tinny cymbals, etc. Mr Bethke has mistaken unthinking mechanical obedience with true religion.

The Creator called people to be holy—so naturally you will find unholy people accepting a compromise—it is called being lukewarm, compromising.

Then Ten Commands are the means to identify the true believers—the Torah is there to identify sin.

 

[halleyscomet]

I am not ignoring you as such, but there are so many posts so I only choose some—you are wrong about faith—faith is based on obedience to the Torah as Jesus taught. The Ten Commands are the pivotal structure of faith in the Creator. A person who has faith will not lie, steal and commit adultery. Jesus demonstrated this,



That is not the way the Scriptures portray the truth---yes many will fall away, because they do not hold on to the commands of God.

True today there is no evidence of Jesus in the Church, because the Church has abandoned the teachings of Jesus, and Jesus has abandoned the Church as it is written.

Rev 3:15 I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other! So, because you are lukewarm—neither hot nor cold—I am about to spit you out of my mouth.

Mat 24:10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other,
Mat 24:11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people.
Mat 24:12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold,
Mat 24:13 but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.Mat 24:14 And this Gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the END will come.

So we are living in a time when the Church will be purged of all its heresies, and the truth will avail.

The problem with your tendency to use a great many words to say nothing of value is you can't even bother to be entertaining or interesting when you do so.

 

[Border Reiver]

The Creator called people to be holy—so naturally you will find unholy people accepting a compromise—it is called being lukewarm, compromising.

Better lukewarm then a hypocrite.

You who claim perfect obedience with one side of your mouth and then claim that you do not need to follow certain laws on the other, despite your lord and saviour's assertion that he was not going to change the laws. By doing so, you bear false witness - a violation of the Ten Commands you proclaim must be followed.