Destroyed Atlantis = Menorah

[Belz...]

Personal attacks are not arguments or alternative theories, sir.

Please refrain.

You are impervious to actual arguments.

 

[Cervelo]

Wow....this looks like every other discussion with Footers, UFOers, NDEers, ect ect
Baseless assertion is made
Challenged
Ignorant evidence is proffered
Refuted to an embarrassing degree
Hand waving, twisting in the wind ensues...all the while declaring victory
Good laugh had by all!

Put another way.....

 

[abaddon]

Personal attacks are not arguments or alternative theories, sir.

Your argument is baloney unsupported by evidence.

Your evidence consists of nothing more than "Looks like it to me" in the same way as people see the virgin mary in a piece of toast. Or jebus in a dog's rear.
You might as well claim that a three candle candlestick is evidence that Neptune King of the Waters is real because it looks like his mythical trident.

Please refrain.

From what? None of the above is a personal attack.

 

[The Greater Fool]

I alluded to this earlier, but KotA has missed the obvious:

The Menorah is actually an alien symbol. Atlantis was an ancient civilization founded by these aliens using the Menorah as their symbol of development, even building the city in it's shape (twice!). Sadly, the aliens being spacefaring creatures, didn't understand geology nearly well enough and chose the Atlantis location poorly, and their investment sank with the city. To mitigate the financial disaster of Atlantis, the aliens took virtually anything that might have any value, which is why identifiable ruins have never been found.

Then what should happen but the aliens learned Aristotle was talking and writing about Atlantis, and realized records still existed. The aliens took or destroyed the records Aristotle used, and tried to get Aristotle to stop talking about it. Aristotle would have none of it, as it was one of the best parts of his act, so the aliens poisoned him, took his notes, and that was the end of that.

Or so they thought. Plato then started talking and writing about Atlantis. The aliens knew there was no written record and no physical evidence of Atlantis left and since Plato passed it off as fiction, decided to leave well enough alone.

And besides, the Aliens were starting something new...

Not learning from their mistake, the aliens founded another society in a location that was unlikely to sink. The goat herders like what the aliens were selling, and the grand experiment was again alive. The building plans were presented and approved, and again the Menorah mark was built in. Unfortunately, these goat herders kept getting overrun by neighbors, and kept having to rebuild. The whole thing never panned out for the aliens. And so it goes.

It's all right there.

 

[Mojo]

I've said, my case has been presented. I have nothing further on this topic.

FTFY.

 

[Greebo]

I alluded to this earlier, but KotA has missed the obvious:

The Menorah is actually an alien symbol. Atlantis was an ancient civilization founded by these aliens using the Menorah as their symbol of development, even building the city in it's shape (twice!). Sadly, the aliens being spacefaring creatures, didn't understand geology nearly well enough and chose the Atlantis location poorly, and their investment sank with the city. To mitigate the financial disaster of Atlantis, the aliens took virtually anything that might have any value, which is why identifiable ruins have never been found.

Then what should happen but the aliens learned Aristotle was talking and writing about Atlantis, and realized records still existed. The aliens took or destroyed the records Aristotle used, and tried to get Aristotle to stop talking about it. Aristotle would have none of it, as it was one of the best parts of his act, so the aliens poisoned him, took his notes, and that was the end of that.

Or so they thought. Plato then started talking and writing about Atlantis. The aliens knew there was no written record and no physical evidence of Atlantis left and since Plato passed it off as fiction, decided to leave well enough alone.

And besides, the Aliens were starting something new...

Not learning from their mistake, the aliens founded another society in a location that was unlikely to sink. The goat herders like what the aliens were selling, and the grand experiment was again alive. The building plans were presented and approved, and again the Menorah mark was built in. Unfortunately, these goat herders kept getting overrun by neighbors, and kept having to rebuild. The whole thing never panned out for the aliens. And so it goes.

It's all right there.

True, every last word of it - I've even seen a film about it.

 

[King of the Americas]

You are impervious to actual arguments.

^Straw-man Fallacy^

 

[King of the Americas]

Wow....this looks like every other discussion with Footers, UFOers, NDEers, ect ect ...

Put another way.....

^Not an alternative theory or a refutation of evidence presented.^

 

[abaddon]

^Straw-man Fallacy^

You don't know what that is, do you?

^Not an alternative theory or a refutation of evidence presented.^

You have presented no evidence only your own wild speculation.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

Which civilizations did Plato say the Atlanteans conquered?

The reason I ask is that if it happened 9,000 years before he wrote about it then, for instance, we aren't talking about ancient Egypt. We're talking about prehistoric Egypt.

If Atlantis sank beneath the waves in the late Mesolithic, then the paucity of surviving archaeological material from the cultures of the time would handily explain why no other sources of their story can be found.

Unfortunately it also makes it abundantly clear how ridiculously unlikely it is that Plato was describing known history.

 

[Belz...]

^Straw-man Fallacy^

You have absolutely no idea what that means, do you?

 

[SOdhner]

Hey, I'm new to this conversation because it took me a while to get all caught up. I've read through everything though, and I want to make sure I have this right. KotA, please feel free to correct me if I am mistaken:

THEORY:

1. Atlantis was a real place, despite only ever being described by fictional characters Plato made up.

2. All the scholars that have studied Plato are wrong about him making things up for his writings, because KotA is sure he wouldn't have done that.

3. Plato (or at least the fictional character that was 'talking' about Atlantis in Plato's writings) was wrong about the location of Atlantis, despite specifically making it clear that it was at a distant point in the Atlantic ocean, such that it was vital to use Atlantis as a stopping-off point to reach other islands. Instead, it was on the coast of Spain.

4. Likewise, it was not actually an island. It was just... on the coast of Spain.

5. The detailed description of the island was all wrong. The size must have been wrong, but that also means that the population was wrong, the mountains couldn't have been there, presumably they didn't have elephants?

6. The part about Atlantis sinking causing the ocean in that area to be impossible to navigate 9000 years later has to be wrong, because as mentioned it was on or just off the coast of Spain and boats had no trouble sailing around there.

7. Despite being a powerful seafaring nation that traveled far and conquered many lands, once the island sunk everyone forgot about it except for a handful of people that passed it down until it got to Plato. Presumably the many many survivors that weren't at home when disaster struck just resolved to never speak of it again.

8. Symbols that have been found (not in underwater ruins) must be a reference to Atlantis, even though concentric circles are extremely common things to draw and even though we have nothing that indicates the people of Atlantis referred to their island that way nor is there anything linking the rocks or artifacts in question to the legend of Atlantis.

9. Some symbols that have been found are semicircles, and even though Atlantis wasn't a bunch of semicircles these must also be a reference to Atlantis. They also must be a menorah, despite not looking like a menorah and there being nothing in any way connecting this rock to the ancient Jews.

10. The Jewish people are mistaken about the meaning of their own religious symbols.

11. Plato is either wrong about how old Atlantis is, or the articles that were linked were wrong about the age of the ruins and artifacts, OR these things came about from the descendants of the survivors of Atlantis rather than being from Atlantis directly (reminder, Atlantis sank about 11,500 years ago according to Plato's fictional character's story (9k + age of Plato)).

Did I get all that right?

 

[Cervelo]

^Not an alternative theory or a refutation of evidence presented.^

Uhh---Duh!
It's an observation and comparison to other almost as silly baseless claims
But your response is another great example of handwaving to distract from your failure to support your claim...keep proving my point

 

[TheSapient]

B
The oldest mention of the menorah is a biblical reference that provides no provenance.

The menorah looks like a candle holder and is used as a candle holder. Because the we don't know who made the very first one, we can not know with absolute certainty it started as a candle holder.

Therefore KotA knows it was a symbol of Atlantis.

 

[BStrong]

If I found that funny, am I part Nazi?

You're the one drawing the picture.

 

[fibbermcgee]

Daily Mail 2015.

For centuries experts have believed Atlantis is a lost city under the sea
But Michael Hubner claimed remains of city were actually on land.
He said a tsunami had overwhelmed Atlantis, flattening the ancient city.
Waters had then receded, leaving remnants of city near coast of Morocco
Hubner used 'clues' given in Plato's description of Atlantis to pinpoint site.
Identified 51 details and used them to calculate coordinates of Atlantis.
Clues were that Atlantis surrounded by circles and 3,100 miles from Athens.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencet...unami-remains-hiding-plain-sight-Morocco.html

This guy studied Plato and thinks Atlantis is in Morocco. What a conundrum!

 

[Craig4]

Why are you dismissing the possibility that you're wrong and we don't know?

This is your central problem and you need to address this. This is the problem from which the rest of your problems spring. Nothing you do matters if you can't address this.

 

[Cosmic Yak]

Ahhh, did you read the passage I posted?

Exodus simply says that God said to build the menorah in a shape after a "pattern" on the mount.

There is no explanation or previous history provided.

That's not speculation of any type.

One, that's still not provenance. WHY a 'lamp' with 7 flames? Where did the "pattern" come from?

The biblical origins are silent hereon.

And yet you claim it came from Atlantis.
Did I miss the part where you provided historical evidence for this claim, because I'd hate to think you would break your own rules and resort to mere speculation.
BTW, does the Bible even mention Atlantis? It puzzles me that you would be using a source that (AFAIK) makes no mention of the civilisation you claim existed, as partial evidence that it did indeed exist.
To reiterate a question you have yet to answer: are there any historical sources other than Plato, that make mention of Atlantis? The Egyptians, Phoenicians, Chinese, Babylonians, the Indus River civilisations, the Celts? Anyone?

Well, that's the catch, right? Which mount, what symbol?

On page one is a picture another poster inverted, flipped and re-attached to another menorah.

The image is atop a large stone and features 3 concentric circles atop a trident, the symbol for Poseidon and Atlantis, here featured as a menorah...maybe?

Other early images of what may or may not be a menorah, are not 'upright' like a lamp should be, which is now a candle-stick holder...more evidence that the symbol is being misappropriated.

In my head, this is about 'the best possible explanation'... If we KNOW the symbol was adopted, which we do, where did it come from? The only other explanation put forth was the "cup" spirals missing the 'foot' of the menorah or Poseidon trident.

I am not certain, but I think those are Celtic, northern English borne, no?

While the symbol of a city lost to the Atlantic ocean's depths would have been quite accessible to the Mediterranean Sea.

I'm gonna conclude here, by saying, I don't know for 100% absolute fact that these two symbols are connected. I would however, after reviewing the Spanish coast, Cameron's film, multiple images of old menorah's, and the provenance or lack thereof, I find that "it is most likely" that the symbol or pattern was adopted from a previously known source of power, authority, or wisdom.

Plato's descriptions of a sunken city, and the ruins now underwater, in my opinion represent the most likely origin of the symbol.

If there is a better more likely source, I would be very interested in reviewing those findings.

My case has been presented, my evidences are varied and plentiful, and I have addressed all of the points raised by the opposition.

Rather than present a case to offer a counter argument, the opposition here have engaged in a "nu-uh" defense. Plato, a renowned teacher and writer, has been brought or made low, google earth images of sunken ruins ignored, so too with biblical references of the cultural appropriation of the "pattern" of the menorah.

Until a better, more consistent, more reliable explanation is brought to bare, the best possible understanding would, for now, be had by connecting the menorah and Plato's Atlantis.

My case is thusly rested.

Once again, where is your evidence that the menorah was appropriated from Atlantis?
Your only piece so far is the fact that one author mentioned a round city. Have you eliminated all other civilisations of the time that built round structures? How? Have you eliminated all other authors who mention civilisations that are not Atlantis? Again, please show your work. You have taken two isolated writings and joined them together to the exclusion of all others, because it 'seems likely' to you. Morevoer, the Bible does not say the design of the menorah was appropriated at all. It says god gave them a design, and that is all.
Would you also mind answering my point about Plato?

 

[King of the Americas]

You have absolutely no idea what that means, do you?

I know that when you create a false narrative and then attack it, that's a fallacy of a straw-man type.

 

[King of the Americas]

Which civilizations did Plato say the Atlanteans conquered?

The reason I ask is that if it happened 9,000 years before he wrote about it then, for instance, we aren't talking about ancient Egypt. We're talking about prehistoric Egypt.

If Atlantis sank beneath the waves in the late Mesolithic, then the paucity of surviving archaeological material from the cultures of the time would handily explain why no other sources of their story can be found.

Unfortunately it also makes it abundantly clear how ridiculously unlikely it is that Plato was describing known history.

Have you reviewed the links presented yet?