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Destroyed Atlantis = Menorah

Upon Plato: From: http://www.classics.berkeley.edu/sites/default/files/faculty/pubs/platothewriter.pdf

"“When Socrates tackles an issue,” writes Thomas Szlezák,“it comes to a de nite result—the discussion takes no false turns,leads down no blind alleys.” In other words, Plato’s principal way of composing precisely the sequence of action and thought that he wished to present to the reader was to insert into that action a conversational maestro whose baton could direct the entire orchestra of ctional voices that the reader gets to hear.

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Plato, by contrast, is not working with a live audience, but writing the script for the entire dialogue:its dialectical bouts,its mythical narrative, and everything else besides. It is not just the writing of myth, then, that constitutes for Plato what the telling of my this for Socrates; rather, it is the writing of an entire dialogue that builds his domain of freedom."

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Plato,unlike Socrates, was a philosopher running a school; he was, in his way, what we would now call an academic politician, much concerned about turning institutional ideas into reality. Certainly, Plato could agree that, were the issue of feasibility not to be ad- dressed, the account of Callipolis would not lose any of its value as an account of the paradigm city. But he would not suppose it equal in value to an account that, in addition, did address the issue of feasibility. That much is clear from his having ensured that, in the book he chose to write, the issue was indeed addressed. The further fact that he arranged for it to be addressed with conspicuous airiness by Socrates is what shows the reader how Plato takes himself to be addressing it with adequate commitment.
 
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You seem to have skipped a couple of steps, like all of them.

Wait...That's the end of the trail. To the Jewish religion, the "pattern" had no other additional meaning.

The connection to Atlantis would be in its shape, location or path of migration, from a date associated with the sunken city....
 
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-Find an inscription of a well known religious symbol
-Claim it's a map of half of Atlantis
-People tell you the thing that looks like a lamp and is only ever described as a literal or metaphorical lamp probably represents a lamp.
-Claim the absence of pre-judaic providence and the fact that every source we have contradicts you is proof the jews forgot it was from Atlantis, so it must have been from Atlantis.

I can't tell whether you're so engrossed by a need to be in on sooper seekrit ancient lore that you can't see you're imagining things, or if you're just being disingenuous.
 
-Find an inscription of a well known religious symbol
-Claim it's a map of half of Atlantis
-People tell you the thing that looks like a lamp and is only ever described as a literal or metaphorical lamp probably represents a lamp.
-Claim the absence of pre-judaic providence and the fact that every source we have contradicts you is proof the jews forgot it was from Atlantis, so it must have been from Atlantis.

I can't tell whether you're so engrossed by a need to be in on sooper seekrit ancient lore that you can't see you're imagining things, or if you're just being disingenuous.

^Disingenuous^

-Find an inscription??

James Cameron teamed up with National Geographic to investigate the links between the symbol adopted by the Jewish religion and the sunken city.

I accept that it is NOW worshiped as a lamp or candle holder. The "pattern," its original meaning and origin is GONE, otherwise NOT mentioned in the Bible. But what does this lamp 'mean' what does it represent?

That's not what 'proves' the menorah was the symbol for a destroyed Atlantis.
Edited by Agatha: 
Removed breach of rule 12
 
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^Disingenuous^

I accept that it is NOW worshiped as a lamp or candle holder. The "pattern," its original meaning and origin is GONE, otherwise NOT mentioned in the Bible. But what does this lamp 'mean' what does it represent?
If there is no evidence for this symbol representing anything but a menorah, then what is the assertion that it represents a map of a mythical city (but only half of it, because... reasons) based on but wishful thinking?

Symbols consisting of concentric circles are quite common.
Are you suggesting they all represent Atlantis? Or is this menorah different? And if so, why?
 
If there is no evidence for this symbol representing anything but a menorah, then what is the assertion that it represents a map of a mythical city (but only half of it, because... reasons) based on but wishful thinking?

Symbols consisting of concentric circles are quite common.
Are you suggesting they all represent Atlantis? Or is this menorah different? And if so, why?

It's the number of concentric circles...

And why this "pattern"...what did it MEAN, where did it come from, why did this Biblical authority point to it? We simply don't know...it doesn't actually represent anything within the Jewish religion.

The Cup and ring marks you posted look very dissimilar to the 3 concentric rings of Atlantis...
 
It's the number of concentric circles...
But they're not circles, they're at best semicircles. So it does not look like Plato's description of Atlantis.
The assertion that this means it's 'Atlantis snapped clean in half', symbolizing its destruction in a flood is pulled from a location murkier and smellier than any Mediterranean mud bank...

And why this "pattern"...what did it MEAN, where did it come from, why did this Biblical authority point to it? We simply don't know...it doesn't actually represent anything within the Jewish religion
Except, you know, the lamp stand in the First Temple...
You can't just assert that it's a symbol for an ancient city without corroborating evidence.
And pretending that your lack of evidence is the real evidence something mysterious is going on is just silly...

The Cup and ring marks you posted look very dissimilar to the 3 concentric rings of Atlantis...
They look more like Atlantis than a candlestick does...
For starters, they're actually concentric rings. Usually connected by a line, which could be your canal. I don't understand the fixation on the three rings... If Atlantis had been a real city, it would have been destroyed at least 800 years before Plato. It isn't more outlandish to believe that he might have guessed the amount of ringwalls incorrectly than it is to believe that he somehow learned of a place that was both the greatest city ever, and yet completely unmentioned in any source from the previous millennium.

What I'm trying to say is: you can't just take a symbol, and speculate that it's actually not what thousands of years of written tradition claim it is, based on nothing more than vague similarities to something else that has never been documented.
You need to show where it came from, what it used to look like, and what the previous iterations symbolized to the people who made them to do that.
 
But they're not circles, they're at best semicircles. So it does not look like Plato's description of Atlantis.
The assertion that this means it's 'Atlantis snapped clean in half', symbolizing its destruction in a flood is pulled from a location murkier and smellier than any Mediterranean mud bank...

Yes, but there was evidence from which to make this claim. It was not 'baseless.'

Except, you know, the lamp stand in the First Temple...
You can't just assert that it's a symbol for an ancient city without corroborating evidence.
And pretending that your lack of evidence is the real evidence something mysterious is going on is just silly...

You're pettifogging the issue here. I am saying herein, that the lack of evidence as to what this lamp/menorah actually represents is evidence "that it was adopted." Not where or why it was adopted from. We don't know why the biblical authority said build this like this, nor what "pattern" he is referring to.

They look more like Atlantis than a candlestick does...
For starters, they're actually concentric rings. Usually connected by a line, which could be your canal. I don't understand the fixation on the three rings... If Atlantis had been a real city, it would have been destroyed at least 800 years before Plato. It isn't more outlandish to believe that he might have guessed the amount of ringwalls incorrectly than it is to believe that he somehow learned of a place that was both the greatest city ever, and yet completely unmentioned in any source from the previous millennium.

Unmentioned...? Except for Plato and where ever he received his information from...?

What I'm trying to say is: you can't just take a symbol, and speculate that it's actually not what thousands of years of written tradition claim it is, based on nothing more than vague similarities to something else that has never been documented.
You need to show where it came from, what it used to look like, and what the previous iterations symbolized to the people who made them to do that.

What do they (Jewish people) claim it represents? I've found conflicting theories...
 
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Unmentioned...? Except for Plato and where ever he received his information from...?
Yes... The collapse of the great Bronze Age civilisations was around 1200 BC, so that is the absolute latest date for a possible Atlantis.
Plato wrote his allegory around 400BC.
So any mention of the supposedly greatest city in the history of mankind disappeared for at least 800 years (And if we accept Plato's dating, actually for thousands of years).
And if you really want to take Plato as a reliable source, you'd also have to accept that he claims Atlantis was built on an island lager than Anatolia, situated in the Atlantic. If you're willing to look past the impossibility of such an island, then why is a relatively minor detail like the number of city walls suddenly a deal breaker?
I think I know: because that's the only thing that links the menorah to Atlantis. And because it lets you dismiss similarities to other concentric symbols, like those Stone Age petroglyphs, which discredit your assumptions.

What do they (Jewish people) claim it represents? I've found conflicting theories...
Irrelevant. To claim it symbolizes a mythical sunken city, you need evidence.
The fact that its meaning changed in the thousands of years the Jews used it does not mean you can just invent your own meaning and pretend that predates Jewish usage.
 
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Yes... The collapse of the great Bronze Age civilisations was around 1200 BC, so that is the absolute latest date for a possible Atlantis.
Plato wrote his allegory around 400BC.
So any mention of the supposedly greatest city in the history of mankind disappeared for at least 800 years (And if we accept Plato's dating, actually for thousands of years).
And if you really want to take Plato as a reliable source, you'd also have to accept that he claims Atlantis was built on an island lager than Anatolia, situated in the Atlantic. If you're willing to look past the impossibility of such an island, then why is a relatively minor detail like the number of city walls suddenly a deal breaker?
I think I know: because that's the only thing that links the menorah to Atlantis. And because it lets you dismiss similarities to other concentric symbols, like those Stone Age petroglyphs, which discredit your assumptions.


Irrelevant. To claim it symbolizes a mythical sunken city, you need evidence.
The fact that its meaning changed in the thousands of years the Jews used it does not mean you can just invent your own meaning and pretend that predates Jewish usage.

You are misrepresenting my claims...

I don't associate any of those dates with the destruction of Atlantis.

Irrelevant? I don't think so. Do you accept or deny that the menorah was adopted by the Jewish religion from an outside source, and was then meaningless?
 
I see you're glossing over the actually pertinent parts of my posts, and keep going back to vague insinuations of possible symbolism, ignoring why your 'evidence' is absurdly selective and self-contradictory.

Do you accept or deny that the menorah was adopted by the Jewish religion from an outside source, and was then meaningless?
I don't know.
Are there any representations of the menorah that predate Judaism? If there are, in cultures the ancient Israelites had contact with, that would be evidence they adopted it from an outside source.

But no matter how you try to spin it, the assertion that the menorah was based on a schematic map of Atlantis cut in half is completely unsupported.
You have no evidence. Nothing. Just idle speculation.
 
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If a story Plato told was not his invention, but had survived in Mediterranean culture for many thousands of years before him, why does he now appear to be the sole source of the story? Are there no traces of the story in other texts or variations in other Mediterranean cultures?

If a city famously disappeared completely beneath the waves, why is anyone looking for half of it which didn't?

And further, if half your city disappeared beneath the waves, why would the symbol of your surviving home show the original symbol for the whole city but with the top half missing? Isn't the bottom half missing?

If the original city had been like the artistic depiction further up this thread, with concentric circles built on a shallow hill, a disaster which submerged half of the city would have removed the outer circles, not half of each circle.
 
I don't know.
Are there any representations of the menorah that predate Judaism? If there are, in cultures the ancient Israelites had contact with, that would be evidence they adopted it from an outside source.

How do you not know...? I just quoted you the introduction of the "pattern" of the menorah to the Jewish people, from Exodus. There is no 'reason' put forth. The dude just said, build this thing, here's what it should look like... 7 lamps have become 8 or more candles. The symbol or "pattern" which is an interesting word...had 'no meaning'

But no matter how you try to spin it, the assertion that the menorah was based on a schematic map of Atlantis cut in half is completely unsupported.

NOW, let's answer the question above...where did this "pattern" come from...? Where do we find it...on the coast...of spain...underwater...from a period thousands upon thousands of years ago...
 
How do you not know...? I just quoted you the introduction of the "pattern" of the menorah to the Jewish people, from Exodus. There is no 'reason' put forth. The dude just said, build this thing, here's what it should look like... 7 lamps have become 8 or more candles. The symbol or "pattern" which is an interesting word...had 'no meaning'
So... no source predating the Jews then? Just their own sources telling how they designed it.

NOW, let's answer the question above...where did this "pattern" come from...? Where do we find it...on the coast...of spain...underwater...from a period thousands upon thousands of years ago...
Do you have an image of this Spanish carving that supposedly looks like a menorah? I've searched, but couldn't find anything.
And the picture of the gold medallion you poster earlier is actually from Jerusalem in the 7th century AD, not from a sunken city a couple of thousand years earlier.
 
So... no source predating the Jews then? Just their own sources telling how they designed it.

Right, exactly. God, or whatever biblical authority describes what is to be made out of, what it should look like, made after a "pattern" on or in some mount, but no 'reason' or previous history noted.

Do you have an image of this Spanish carving that supposedly looks like a menorah? I've searched, but couldn't find anything.
And the picture of the gold medallion you poster earlier is actually from Jerusalem in the 7th century AD, not from a sunken city a couple of thousand years earlier.

Maybe watch the Cameron film...?
 

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