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The biggest straw man

logger said:
Sure, I'd love to know!

What does fiscal prudence mean though? How does a socialist country be prudent with spending? It kinda goes against socialism.
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There's a nice anecdote about post-WW2 Dutch Labour leader Willem Drees. In 1947, the US officials Harriman and Hoffman would have visited him about the Marshall aid. For some reason, they visited him at home, in his terraced house. Ms. Drees served the tea, opened the biscuit tin and offered them one plain biscuit - after which the biscuit tin was closed again. On their way back, Harriman and Hoffman concluded that in a country where the PM lived so frugally, the Marshall aid would be well spent.

Now, this anecdote in all likelihood is a myth, but it bears a kernel of truth. The Dutch Labour party under Drees' leadership was very much fiscally conservative, and it has in fact never been a party wont to rack up state deficit.

Also, while in the period 1946-1958, Dutch governments were formed around a Labour-Catholic coalition, building up a welfare state has been a project that has been supported by all parties. On the whole, since WW2, the Labour party has been less years in government than in opposition. Abroad, especially in the USA, there may be the image that the Netherlands is left-wing, but that's actually not the case; the left-wing has always been in a minority. This is mainly due to socially progressive issues like abortion, euthanasia and (soft) drug use. But those are mostly issues where in the Dutch political spectrum, the political left (Labour, Greens) and political right (free market liberals) agree on, while they're opposed by the political center, the Christian-Democrats with their religious hangups that unwanted children must be born and terminally ill people should suffer as long as possible.
 
Ryokan said:
In Norway, the social democrats have never held a majority in parliament. As I said previously in this thread, the PM and cabinet have been from the right around half the time since 1945. Most of the things that Americans point to to show Norway is a socialist country has broad support across the political spectrum.

As I also said previously, the current governing coalition is the most right wing we've ever had. If you come to Norway and try to tell us we're a socialist, or even social democratic, country, a lot of people will be confused.

Things like a welfare state, universal health care, regulations, etc, are usually not a right vs left issue in Europe. Socialist don't have a monopoly on these issues. I'm a big supporter of what we call the Nordic model, but I consider myself to be on the right and have never voted for any party on the left.

After all, the father of the modern welfare state in Europe was Otto von Bismarck, and I don't think any of his contemporaries would have ever dared call him a socialist to his face.

This has all to do with the American definition of socialism, which seems to be "whenever the government does anything, except for the military."
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That's interesting. As i said before, it would be interesting to do a side by side comparison. The left constantly throws your country up as an example of what we should do.
 
Here I was thinking Venezuela's problems stemmed from corruption and a very monolithic economy. I guess it was because they had welfare programs.

The things internet trolls can teach you.
 
logger said:
That's interesting. As i said before, it would be interesting to do a side by side comparison. The left constantly throws your country up as an example of what we should do.
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I will bite, but here is the caveat. It doesn't matter, because what you call the left is in these parts also a part of the right. It means that you will find people in these countries who are on right spectrum of values/ideologies and so on, who accept and will defend the idea of high taxes and a welfare-state.

So if we are to debate this you must learn to differentiate between hard-left, centre-left, centrum, centre-right and hard right and understand that a liberal country is not necessarily US-liberal.
We , the countries, in question is a combination of capitalism, high taxation and government programs, which try to give a given human a "fighting chance" to have a good life.

So the moment I say high taxation and government programs, if all you can say, is that is "off the left and evil", the debate stops. I accept that you have a different world-view that mine, but I see no reason to debate it unless you can see your own idealogical "blinders" as much as you can see everybody else's idealogical "blinders".

With regards
 
Tommy Jeppesen said:
I will bite, but here is the caveat. It doesn't matter, because what you call the left is in these parts also a part of the right. It means that you will find people in these countries who are on right spectrum of values/ideologies and so on, who accept and will defend the idea of high taxes and a welfare-state.

So if we are to debate this you must learn to differentiate between hard-left, centre-left, centrum, centre-right and hard right and understand that a liberal country is not necessarily US-liberal.
We , the countries, in question is a combination of capitalism, high taxation and government programs, which try to give a given human a "fighting chance" to have a good life.

So the moment I say high taxation and government programs, if all you can say, is that is "off the left and evil", the debate stops. I accept that you have a different world-view that mine, but I see no reason to debate it unless you can see your own idealogical "blinders" as much as you can see everybody else's idealogical "blinders".

With regards
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Is the high taxes on everyone or just the rich? If it's just the rich, do they defend it?
Is it a graduated system like ours?

Here's an interesting article. It's obviously very much in favor of what is going on in Denmark, who does have a graduated tax system. Although this is informative, I'd like to find some counter points to it.
https://www.usnews.com/news/best-co...-20/why-danes-happily-pay-high-rates-of-taxes
 
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logger said:
Is the high taxes on everyone or just the rich? If it's just the rich, do they defend it?
Is it a graduated system like ours?

Here's an interesting article. It's obviously very much in favor of what is going on in Denmark, who does have a graduated tax system. Although this is informative, I'd like to find some counter points to it.
https://www.usnews.com/news/best-co...-20/why-danes-happily-pay-high-rates-of-taxes
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Do you want to find the counter points yourself and shall I give you my understanding of the limitations and problems inherent in a welfare system?

With regards
 
logger said:
Is the high taxes on everyone or just the rich? If it's just the rich, do they defend it?
Is it a graduated system like ours?

Here's an interesting article. It's obviously very much in favor of what is going on in Denmark, who does have a graduated tax system. Although this is informative, I'd like to find some counter points to it.
https://www.usnews.com/news/best-co...-20/why-danes-happily-pay-high-rates-of-taxes
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A note that the article makes, left wing societies tend to see taxes as the way that they contribute to their society. They are an investment in the future of the country, and a payment for the services that Governments provide.

Right wing societies seem to see taxes as their money that the government takes from them to give to others.
 
twinstead said:
Question:

Why does the Right insist on using the problems in Venezuela as an example of why those who want 'socialism' in the US are...
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Actually the most shining example of socialism of course is Nationalsozialismus.
It was so shiny that the socialists placed it on the other side of the political spectrum just so it shines in it's very special social way. ;)
 
PhantomWolf said:
A note that the article makes, left wing societies tend to see taxes as the way that they contribute to their society. They are an investment in the future of the country, and a payment for the services that Governments provide.

Right wing societies seem to see taxes as their money that the government takes from them to give to others.
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That's a decent summary.

Places worth living in tend to have high taxes, and correspondingly high levels of infrastructure and government services.

Places with low taxes and weak governmental regulations tend to have a low quality of life for the average citizen.
 
PhantomWolf said:
A note that the article makes, left wing societies tend to see taxes as the way that they contribute to their society. They are an investment in the future of the country, and a payment for the services that Governments provide.

Right wing societies seem to see taxes as their money that the government takes from them to give to others.
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I think you're missing some key points though. I'll accept the premise that socialism works in these countries to make a point. First an over whelming majority had to be on board with the high taxes, I'm sure we can agree they're on board. The point you might be missing is maybe these countries also have an over whelming majority that doesn't game the system. All are willing to put in the effort even though they only get the same services as their other countrymen. Having this high work ethic combined with putting this trust into their government makes it work. The size of these countries probably also contributes to the success. This is what many leftist want to achieve, I just don't think it's possible in the USA. Too many don't buy into government cradle to grave services and too many also aren't willing to give it their best.
 
Another way of looking at is, countries such as the USA have low tax rates.... Whether you say tax rates are high or low often gives away someone's beliefs regarding taxation. Is the tax rate in Denmark high? Or is it that they have the tax rate about right and some countries have a low*er* tax rate than what they *should* have?
 
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logger said:
I think you're missing some key points though. I'll accept the premise that socialism works in these countries to make a point. First an over whelming majority had to be on board with the high taxes, I'm sure we can agree they're on board. The point you might be missing is maybe these countries also have an over whelming majority that doesn't game the system. All are willing to put in the effort even though they only get the same services as their other countrymen. Having this high work ethic combined with putting this trust into their government makes it work. The size of these countries probably also contributes to the success. This is what many leftist want to achieve, I just don't think it's possible in the USA. Too many don't buy into government cradle to grave services and too many also aren't willing to give it their best.
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So why all the rants about "Evil Socialism" when it can work in some countries? Why not just argue that it won't work in the US? Why scare people?
 
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BobTheCoward said:
No, I don't agree that we should accept a score on that as better.
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Are you a we, BobTheCoward? You are not a we and can't speak for a we. There is no we unless you define it so but it doesn't make it so that you and I become a we.
I don't believe that you are a libertarian with this insistence on a we.
 
Tommy Jeppesen said:
Are you a we, BobTheCoward? You are not a we and can't speak for a we. There is no we unless you define it so but it doesn't make it so that you and I become a we.
I don't believe that you are a libertarian with this insistence on a we.
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Bob and hlaford is a "we". There is a "we" of 2 people.
 
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