Paul Bethke vs the 613 Mitzvot

The Christian use of "virgin birth" for their divine hero figure is a direct copy of the Mithraic legends that predate Christianity by centuries. It is a patent attempt by a Romanized person (Paul) to co-opt a familiar element to non-Jews so that they would be more comfortable in his new religion. Just like how Paul lifted dietary restrictions, clothing laws, and indicated that "righteous Gentiles" could still be with His god even though a strict reading of their new faith would cause his converts to realize that their ancestors were all being punished for not believing as Paul said.
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Paul never changed the laws contained in the Torah, the dietary laws still apply today as they did then, what Paul was advocating is a inward faith not based on a outward presentation.

Food and sexual purity is a physical thing, clothing is an outward thing---so wearing the right clothing will not enhance ones prayers---it is the prayer of a righteous person.

The teaching that the believer becomes the Temple of the Holy Spirit, never did away with the purpose of a Temple. The Temple primarily housed the ark that contained the Ten Commands and the Book of the Law---

The dietary laws were upheld by Paul as he states--Romans 14:23 But the man who has doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin.

Now faith is based on the Torah—then there is what Jesus stated that no part of the Torah will be abolished.

You SEE you people have the wrong information and make an assumption based on error.

The Torah contained futuristic teachings of a better way of living while maintaining the simple way of living. Israel needed laws to isolate them from the customs of the peoples they would encounter.

The people surrounding Israel had customs that were vile, and So Yahweh gave them laws to distinguish them from these customs.

When repentance was granted to the Gentiles, it was emphasized that they were to abstain from physical contact regarding food and sexual immorality.

Paul still maintained his Hebrew customs, but did not impose them on the Gentile converts.
The Torah was and still is the wisdom of the Creator, and all the laws have an application.

From a Jew.

Torah

For many of us, some of the actual commandments in the Torah can feel arcane, outdated, irrelevant.

Yet, when we push ourselves beyond the surface of any given law — beyond the “thou shalt” or “thou shalt not,” we will find openings to regain relevance over many of these values and principles.

We refer to the Torah as an eternal document. And if the Torah is to truly be eternal, then we must push ourselves to see it as something more than merely a visage of a past culture; we must find practical ways to maintain its relevance through tapping into the deeper values that are the foundation for its laws and practices. Even as Shmita is an obligatory law only for Jews living in the Land of Israel, its values provide an opening for all of us to deeply engage in the cycles of our lives in a proactive manner.

http://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/finding-meaning-in-an-ancient-agricultural-law/

The virgin giving birth was a sign from the Creator to a person who will come many years later to re-establish the importance of the Torah.
 
Paul never changed the laws contained in the Torah, the dietary laws still apply today as they did then, what Paul was advocating is a inward faith not based on a outward presentation.

Which is saying, "I will change theLaw."

Further, by moving away from a Temple based faith, it allowed Paul to remove power from the priests and not coincidently gather it to himself and his new religion.

Food and sexual purity is a physical thing, clothing is an outward thing---so wearing the right clothing will not enhance ones prayers---it is the prayer of a righteous person.

The clothing and grooming laws are the outward signs that you acknowledge the supremacy of Yahweh and that you follow the Law.

The teaching that the believer becomes the Temple of the Holy Spirit, never did away with the purpose of a Temple. The Temple primarily housed the ark that contained the Ten Commands and the Book of the Law---

And by moving away from a physical temple he removes power from the old religious leaders and gathers it to himself, as someone will need to guide the new converts.....

The dietary laws were upheld by Paul as he states--Romans 14:23 But the man who has doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin.



Now faith is based on the Torah—then there is what Jesus stated that no part of the Torah will be abolished.



You SEE you people have the wrong information and make an assumption based on error.



The Torah contained futuristic teachings of a better way of living while maintaining the simple way of living. Israel needed laws to isolate them from the customs of the peoples they would encounter.



The people surrounding Israel had customs that were vile, and So Yahweh gave them laws to distinguish them from these customs.

And yet, you choose to ignore whatever law you find to be inconvenient to follow,.

When repentance was granted to the Gentiles, it was emphasized that they were to abstain from physical contact regarding food and sexual immorality.

Yet Paul's vision has been cited since the early days of Christianity as evidence that the dietary restrictions of the Old Covenant do not apply to the New Covenant.

Paul still maintained his Hebrew customs, but did not impose them on the Gentile converts.

The Torah was and still is the wisdom of the Creator, and all the laws have an application.

And by not imposing the full force of the mitzvot on his converts Paul broke the Law. What Paul preached was a mix of the Torah and other religious traditions. And Paul did this to gain power.

The virgin giving birth was a sign from the Creator to a person who will come many years later to re-establish the importance of the Torah.


The "virgin giving birth" is lifted directly from other, older religions and as Zivan has explained to you, has no basis in earlier Jewish faith.
 
If one surveys the mythologies of the world, virgin and/or miraculous and/or supernatural births are a dime a dozen.
 
Which is saying, "I will change theLaw."
Further, by moving away from a Temple based faith, it allowed Paul to remove power from the priests and not coincidently gather it to himself and his new religion.

There can never be a relinquishing of the Torah as it is the Basis of faith established on the Decalogue. The Temple was eventually destroyed so now a faith was required on a parallel to the Temple which was intended for Yahweh to make his presence known.

Besides Gentile believers stationed all over the world would not be in a position to travel to Jerusalem. So Jesus introduced a new way in which to worship Yahweh—(John 4:21 Jesus declared, "Believe me, woman, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem.
Joh 4:22 You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews.
Joh 4:23 Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks.
Joh 4:24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth."

So the Torah was the way in which the Creator was to be worshiped---but to worship the Creator, it must be in spirit and truth.

So now the Gentiles who were granted repentance could worship the Creator where they lived.

You SEE it is to worship.


The clothing and grooming laws are the outward signs that you acknowledge the supremacy of Yahweh and that you follow the Law.

Correct this outward adornment is still applicable in that there are laws pertaining to dress.
(1Co_11:6 If a woman does not cover her head, she should have her hair cut off; and if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut or shaved off, she should cover her head.
1Co_11:14 Does not the very nature of things teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a disgrace to him,
1Co_11:15 but that if a woman has long hair, it is her glory? For long hair is given to her as a covering.
1Ti_2:9 I also want women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or expensive clothes, )

And by moving away from a physical temple he removes power from the old religious leaders and gathers it to himself, as someone will need to guide the new converts....

Correct, that is why deacons and elders were appointed, having, special qualities—(Tit 1:5 The reason I left you in Crete was that you might straighten out what was left unfinished and appoint elders in every town, as I directed you.
Tit 1:6 An elder must be blameless, the husband of but one wife, a man whose children believe and are not open to the charge of being wild and disobedient.
Tit 1:7 Since an overseer is entrusted with God's work, he must be blameless—not overbearing, not quick-tempered, not given to drunkenness, not violent, not pursuing dishonest gain.
Tit 1:8 Rather he must be hospitable, one who loves what is good, who is self-controlled, upright, holy and disciplined.




And yet, you choose to ignore whatever law you find to be inconvenient to follow,.
Yet Paul's vision has been cited since the early days of Christianity as evidence that the dietary restrictions of the Old Covenant do not apply to the New Covenant.

You probably mean the vision that Peter received---but the vision is not about food, but about the Gentiles that would be granted repentance. Paul still emphasised the need to follow the faith which included abstinence from unclean food as directed by Yahweh----(Romans 14:23 But the man who has doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin.

And by not imposing the full force of the mitzvot on his converts Paul broke the Law. What Paul preached was a mix of the Torah and other religious traditions. And Paul did this to gain power.

Not so, there was no Temple, and no more animal sacrifice, so what is left. So the main criteria was the abstinence from sexual immorality, which was rife as it is today, and the rejection of food that did not have the approval of the Creator—as I said there was still a dress code.

The "virgin giving birth" is lifted directly from other, older religions and as Zivan has explained to you, has no basis in earlier Jewish faith.

So, you say, which is contrary to the Scripture. So is your error going to change the truth—I think not!

Paul was deemed a man who had the wisdom of Yahweh, so he would never contradict Yahweh or Jesus who came to enforce the importance of the Torah. (2Pe_3:15 Bear in mind that our Lord's patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him.

The wisdom of Yahweh is in the Torah, and he judged Israel according to the Torah, and he will judge the world according to Torah.

The New Covenant is the same as the Old Covenant—it is that the terms are different, with regards to entrance.( Hebrews 8:10 This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after that time, declares the Lord. I will put my laws in their minds and write them on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people.

So now which of the laws do I not acknowledge??
 
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There can never be a relinquishing of the Torah as it is the Basis of faith established on the Decalogue. The Temple was eventually destroyed so now a faith was required on a parallel to the Temple which was intended for Yahweh to make his presence known.

Or, they could have rebuilt - there is precedent.

Besides Gentile believers stationed all over the world would not be in a position to travel to Jerusalem.

Why ever not? Devout Muslims around the world make pilgrimages to Mecca and have done so for centuries.


Correct this outward adornment is still applicable in that there are laws pertaining to dress.
(1Co_11:6 If a woman does not cover her head, she should have her hair cut off; and if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut or shaved off, she should cover her head.
1Co_11:14 Does not the very nature of things teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a disgrace to him,
1Co_11:15 but that if a woman has long hair, it is her glory? For long hair is given to her as a covering.
1Ti_2:9 I also want women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or expensive clothes, )

I note that you are ignoring the MALE dress regulations and the grooming laws that pertain to MEN.

Is it because you find it inconvenient to do so, or is it because you simply wish to subjugate women?

Either way, you reveal Bethkeanity as a cafeteria style religion.

Not so, there was no Temple, and no more animal sacrifice, so what is left. So the main criteria was the abstinence from sexual immorality, which was rife as it is today, and the rejection of food that did not have the approval of the Creator—as I said there was still a dress code.

What is left? Seriously?

The feasts - which you say you don't follow.
The grooming laws and male dress code - which you say you do not follow.
Circumcision
Building code (unless you have a parapet around your roof)

So, you say, which is contrary to the Scripture. So is your error going to change the truth—I think not!

Zivan has pointed out to you that Isiah is mistranslated and that when not viewed in the context of the rest of the chapter that particular statement refers to a child born about 700 years BEFORE Jesus is alleged to have lived.

The error is in the Scripture.

When you start with bad data, your conclusion will always be flawed.

Paul was deemed a man who had the wisdom of Yahweh, so he would never contradict Yahweh or Jesus who came to enforce the importance of the Torah.

Paul was deemed to be such a man by Paul's followers.

They had a vested interest in making it clear that they felt Paul was inspired by Yahweh - otherwise, THEY were the ones not following the correct faith.

The wisdom of Yahweh is in the Torah, and he judged Israel according to the Torah, and he will judge the world according to Torah.

Sure.

The New Covenant is the same as the Old Covenant—it is that the terms are different, with regards to entrance.

You don't know a thing about contracts and agreements, do you?

When you change the terms, its a new covenant.

Now, the idea that the sacrifice of Yahweh to Yahweh so that Yahweh could do what Yahweh wants to do anyways washed away the Old Covenant and established the New Covenant is central to Christian thinking and is why the bulk of the Mitzvot are not followed by the vast majority of Christians such as yourself. They don't follow the grooming or dress code because they are considered to be unnecessary in the same manner that the Temple is unnecessary for prayer.

And in the same manner the dietary laws are generally deemed to no longer apply. What matters is your belief in Yahweh and your spirit, not what food is consumed.

So now which of the laws do I not acknowledge??

Off the top of my head:

The feasts - which you say you don't follow.
The grooming laws and male dress code - which you say you do not follow.
Circumcision
The Building code (unless you have a parapet around your roof)
 
I think not--the virgin giving birth is related to Jesus and has superseded all other mythologies.

Meaning you will ignore all the earlier traditions - including those that the Christ story was likely lifted wholesale from.

You are following a copycat religion. Matthew and Luke are very clearly lifting the miracle birth elements from both earlier Jewish traditions, such as Moses, Issac, etc. and other religions to ensure that their hero has a suitably impressive backstory.
 
I think not--the virgin giving birth is related to Jesus and has superseded all other mythologies.

Nope. You are demonstrably wrong.

http://listverse.com/2009/04/13/10-christ-like-figures-who-pre-date-jesus/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miraculous_births

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_in_comparative_mythology

http://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/11161

I could go on, but the simple fact is by the time Jesus was supposedly born a deity who was born of a virgin was about as unique a concept as an angel with wings or a bisexual vampire would be today. If the TV tropes website has existed back then there would have already been a "Virgin Birth" entry before Jesus was born and Jesus would have been criticized for his lack of originality in recycling such a tired, hackneyed idea.
 
Nope. You are demonstrably wrong.

http://listverse.com/2009/04/13/10-christ-like-figures-who-pre-date-jesus/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miraculous_births

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_in_comparative_mythology

http://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/11161

I could go on, but the simple fact is by the time Jesus was supposedly born a deity who was born of a virgin was about as unique a concept as an angel with wings or a bisexual vampire would be today. If the TV tropes website has existed back then there would have already been a "Virgin Birth" entry before Jesus was born and Jesus would have been criticized for his lack of originality in recycling such a tired, hackneyed idea.

Interesting, but it is written---Luke 1:1 Many have undertaken to draw up an account of the things that have been fulfilled among us, just as they were handed down to us by those who from the first were eyewitnesses and servants of the word. Therefore, since
I myself have carefully investigated everything from the beginning, it seemed good also to me to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus, so that you may know the certainty of the things you have been taught.
But now who should I believe—the true account or the false accounts-----Luke 1:34 "How will this be," Mary asked the angel, "since I am a virgin?"

So this is a fulfilment made 730 Bc---Mat 1:22 All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet:
Mat 1:23 "The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel"—which means, "God with us."

So how do we prove this to be true and how do you dispute this?
 
Meaning you will ignore all the earlier traditions - including those that the Christ story was likely lifted wholesale from.

You are following a copycat religion. Matthew and Luke are very clearly lifting the miracle birth elements from both earlier Jewish traditions, such as Moses, Issac, etc. and other religions to ensure that their hero has a suitably impressive backstory.

Copycat of who?
Luke 1:1 Many have undertaken to draw up an account of the things that have been fulfilled among us, just as they were handed down to us by those who from the first were eyewitnesses and servants of the word. Therefore, since I myself have carefully investigated everything from the beginning, it seemed good also to me to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus, so that you may know the certainty of the things you have been taught.

But how can I ignore this that Luke wrote—so as I have stated, the account of Jesus being the Messiah must be proved.

This must be accredited by signs---John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:2 He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

So I suppose that I will have to produce the necessary proof to confirm the Scriptures.
 
I think not--the virgin giving birth is related to Jesus and has superseded all other mythologies.

Today it would be possible for a virgin to have a child.

You are quite correct. With artificial insemination, 'we have at last achieved victory over the orgasm'.

But if the virgin had a child through anal sex and/or lesbian sex, then that would be bad.

By the way, for some weird reason your god has a great many issues with how us mere mortals have sex. One would think, that if your god were actually as great and powerful as you like to make out, then that god would have better things to do with his time than peeking on the sex lives of the mortals he created.

But who knows!

Maybe your god forgot to pay his cable TV bill and constantly watching/judging the sex lives of human is a better form of god entertainment.
 
The virgin giving birth was a sign from the Creator to a person who will come many years later to re-establish the importance of the Torah.

Except that's not at all what Isaiah was talking about in chapters 7 and 8. Not even close. As has been said, Christians rip one verse out of a brilliantly structured essay on an entirely different topic and slap a wholly inappropriate meaning onto it. Why? Because they believed Jesus had been their Messiah and they were looking for any and all scraps of Torah that would seem to support that. The Septuagint mistranslates the operative word as παρθένος, and mistranslates the verb tenses. The supposed supremacy of the New Testament can't change what's written on the page. The error was made centuries ago, but it's still an error.
 
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Copycat of who?
Luke 1:1 Many have undertaken to draw up an account of the things that have been fulfilled among us, just as they were handed down to us by those who from the first were eyewitnesses and servants of the word. Therefore, since I myself have carefully investigated everything from the beginning, it seemed good also to me to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus, so that you may know the certainty of the things you have been taught.

But how can I ignore this that Luke wrote—so as I have stated, the account of Jesus being the Messiah must be proved.

"Luke" wrote fiction.

He was aware of other cultural traditions, needed a suitable backstory for his hero and went with one of the most common - son of a deity and born of a virgin. He's not the first to do so and there are variations - some deities impregnate women in the form of a bundle of feathers, others do so as a rain of golden light, and some just take the form of a mortal man. Luke was fairly prosaic about it - divine messenger to give Mom the heads up and "it just happens."

Luke and Mark also contradict the idea of a divine origin for Jesus - as they provide his genealogy through Joseph back to David (and neither version agrees farther back then his alleged father). In a way this is also part of the very common heroic origin story where the "poor boy from wrong side of the Dead Sea" turns out really to be someone special and the rightful ruler of wherever. You can see this in the legends of Moses, Arthur, Siegfried, Hiawatha, Shaka, etc.

This must be accredited by signs---John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:2 He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

So I suppose that I will have to produce the necessary proof to confirm the Scriptures.

Which would be a change from your usual method of using the Bible to prove the Bible.
 
Perhaps in isolated cases--but that is not the norm---so the fragile tissue is the problem.

But it is still a corruption of what the Creator designed.


This issue of "what the Creator designed" is intriguing. It appears incontrovertible that for an all-powerful Creator, what the Creator designed must be and can only be what is, and vice versa.

So in the case of anal sex, what is (facts such as, anal sex is pleasurable for many, and people engage in anal sex) must be what the Creator designed. Even if the latter fact is actually attributable to the corrupting influence of an adversarial entity, the former cannot be, unless the entity is also granted the power to modify the physical nature of Creation. But the adversary having that power must itself be part of the Creator's design.

Let us compare to a different case: erotic shin-kicking. This is defined as kicking another person's shins for the sexual gratification of either person, or solitary substitutes such as deliberately striking ones own shins against the edge of a chair. To my knowledge, the vast majority of humans do not engage in erotic shin-kicking, nor would find it pleasurable or sexually gratifying to do so.

Is erotic shin-kicking abominable to the Creator? The evidence seems to show it to be far more abominable than anal sex! That's because the Creator saw fit to discourage it not only by mere scattered and incomplete (in that the heterosexual practice is not addressed) scriptural injunction but by designing Creation itself so as to make shin-kicking not sexually gratifying for the vast majority of people in the first place. That seems more in keeping with how a true all-powerful Creator puts His wishes into effect. If you're almighty and you don't want people to jump off the earth, you don't post little signs here and there that say, "Woe unto ye; jumping off the earth is an abomination in My sight." You invent gravity.

Shin-kicking is therefore proven to be a far greater abomination in the Creator's sight than anal sex. Therefore I think a sect should long ago have been founded on its prevention, with elaborate confession and atonement rituals performed in cases of accidental shin impacts. Secluded shops should sell mechanical boots and life-size realistic shin models, while ecstatic mobs should rampage through towns seizing and burning all the coffee tables. A major schism over greaves (either mandatory or forbidden) should have occurred long ago.

Why did none of this happen? Because the Creator's aversion to erotic shin-kicking is written into Creation itself, as are all the other real rules. Scripture is for abstract narrative whose meaning is allowed to be, because it will be, different for every reader. And if there's an adversary, it's far easier for that adversary to mislead us by altering written words than by altering Creation.

Creation is the greatest of all Testaments. Disregard it at your peril.
 
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By the way, for some weird reason your god has a great many issues with how us mere mortals have sex. One would think, that if your god were actually as great and powerful as you like to make out, then that god would have better things to do with his time than peeking on the sex lives of the mortals he created.

3303624067ec7100c39559220e48756c.jpg


This signature is intended to irritate people.
 
[qimg]https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170517/3303624067ec7100c39559220e48756c.jpg[/qimg]

This signature is intended to irritate people.

Thanks much 'Beady'!

This has to be the best reply to any post that I have ever made on the Forum.

:) :) :)
 
Copycat of who?
Luke 1:1 Many have undertaken to draw up an account of the things that have been fulfilled among us, just as they were handed down to us by those who from the first were eyewitnesses and servants of the word. Therefore, since I myself have carefully investigated everything from the beginning, it seemed good also to me to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus, so that you may know the certainty of the things you have been taught.

But how can I ignore this that Luke wrote—so as I have stated, the account of Jesus being the Messiah must be proved.

This must be accredited by signs---John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:2 He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

So I suppose that I will have to produce the necessary proof to confirm the Scriptures.

Interesting, but it is written---Luke 1:1 Many have undertaken to draw up an account of the things that have been fulfilled among us, just as they were handed down to us by those who from the first were eyewitnesses and servants of the word. Therefore, since
I myself have carefully investigated everything from the beginning, it seemed good also to me to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus, so that you may know the certainty of the things you have been taught.
But now who should I believe—the true account or the false accounts-----Luke 1:34 "How will this be," Mary asked the angel, "since I am a virgin?"

So this is a fulfilment made 730 Bc---Mat 1:22 All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet:
Mat 1:23 "The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel"—which means, "God with us."

So how do we prove this to be true and how do you dispute this?

So what? None of that is relevant to the discussion at hand.

Yes, the New Testament claims that Jesus was born to a virgin. What's being pointed out, and what you're denying despite all the evidence, is that Jesus was FAR from the first to make such a claim or have such a claim made about him.

What you're doing is the equivalent of a "Twilight" fan claiming that Edward and Bella were the frist example of a vampire being depicted as a romantic figure in fiction. When confronted with examples from earlier stories of that exact phenomenon, you're responding by quoting from Twilight as if that would somehow prove the whole Buffy / Angel / Spike love triangle never happened.

Even if Jesus WAS born to a virgin mother and you could prove it, that would do NOTHING to address the fact that the same claim was being made about other religious figures for, quite literally, thousands of years before the birth of Christ.
 

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