Paul Bethke vs the 613 Mitzvot

[JayUtah]

Any idea why they do that?

I would like to guess it's the Samaritan dialect, not too different from Uncle Remus saying "Brer Rabbit."

 

[Zivan]

Any idea why they do that?

I would like to guess it's the Samaritan dialect, not too different from Uncle Remus saying "Brer Rabbit."

Yes, they speak arabic and modern hebrew. But Mount Gerizim is holy to them so they will correct you if you say "har gerizim", and tell you it is "(h)argrizim".

 

[JayUtah]

Yes, they speak arabic and modern hebrew. But Mount Gerizim is holy to them so they will correct you if you say "har gerizim", and tell you it is "(h)argrizim".

Much like certain cities are holy to us bourbon and gumbo connoisseurs, and their inhabitants will correct you and say "Loovull" and "Nawlins".

 

[Paul Bethke]

Any idea why they do that?

The Ten Commands as listed in Exodus 20:1-17--These are those that Yahweh inscribed on the two stone tablets---there are additional laws that Yahweh passed on to Moses which Moses recorded.

There can only be these commandments that Yahweh spoke aloud to the Hebrews--the other commands and stipulation were recorded.

Deu 31:26 "Take this Book of the Law and place it beside the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God. There it will remain as a witness against you.

So, you SEE there were laws in addition to the Ten Commands, which were inscribed on the two stone tablets.

But you knew this!

 

[Paul Bethke]

Then post pictures of your Tallit, tzitzit, tallit katan, and Kippah.

I do not practice this outward adornment, it is prayer that is the object and to pray means to be alone as Jesus stated.

It is the same as with the feasts--they are for the Jews---it is a pure heart that matters not adornment. The commandments are written on the heart of the believer.

So these adornments indicate that a person is praying, but prayer is a constant awareness of the Presence of Yahweh.

So the parallel to this adornment is prayer---Mat_6:6 But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

So as Jesus stated, the outward adornment can apply to the
hypocrite---Mat_6:5 "And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full.
--

 

[abaddon]

I do not practice this outward adornment, it is prayer that is the object and to pray means to be alone as Jesus stated.

It is the same as with the feasts--they are for the Jews---it is a pure heart that matters not adornment. The commandments are written on the heart of the believer.

So these adornments indicate that a person is praying, but prayer is a constant awareness of the Presence of Yahweh.

So the parallel to this adornment is prayer---Mat_6:6 But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

So as Jesus stated, the outward adornment can apply to the
hypocrite---Mat_6:5 "And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full.
--

OK, so long as one is not Jewish, one can ignore all of the mitzvot, right?

 

[Paul Bethke]

I predict that PB will NOT list the "Ten Commandments".

Why would I not list them--I have indicated this on many occasions as those inscribed on the two stone tablets--indicating that adultery is a sin, as is lying, stealing and coveting ones neighbors wife, honouring ones father and mother. How is it that you do not recognise them?

 

[Paul Bethke]

OK, so long as one is not Jewish, one can ignore all of the mitzvot, right?

No I did not say that—there are stipulations for Jews that live in Israel, and there is a covenant for Gentiles who convert to the faith in Christ.

Outward adornment, symbolises an inward devotion, so a converted person can have an inward devotion which will have an outward indication. So, an outward adornment does not indicate an inward devotion.

It is similar to people who wear crosses—this should indicate that a person has repented, but that is not the case, we see criminals wearing crosses. People think the cross will protect them, but that is not so.

No manmade object can have an influence on a person’s conduct. An object can indicate a person’s misbehaviour.

It is a pure heart that will indicate a persons faith.--- Mat_5:16 In the same way, let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and praise your Father in heaven.

 

[abaddon]

No I did not say that—there are stipulations for Jews that live in Israel, and there is a covenant for Gentiles who convert to the faith in Christ.

Outward adornment, symbolises an inward devotion, so a converted person can have an inward devotion which will have an outward indication. So, an outward adornment does not indicate an inward devotion.

It is similar to people who wear crosses—this should indicate that a person has repented, but that is not the case, we see criminals wearing crosses. People think the cross will protect them, but that is not so.

No manmade object can have an influence on a person’s conduct. An object can indicate a person’s misbehaviour.

It is a pure heart that will indicate a persons faith.--- Mat_5:16 In the same way, let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and praise your Father in heaven.

Ah, so what you really mean is that you are going to hypocritically dodge those rules you find personally inconvenient simply because you find them personally inconvenient.

Your honesty about this is refreshing. Your unintended consequence is, of course, that I or anyone else is equally at liberty to choose some, all or none of the rules as seems convenient to us, and that you are denying Jesus' own words.

 

[Paul Bethke]

Ah, so what you really mean is that you are going to hypocritically dodge those rules you find personally inconvenient simply because you find them personally inconvenient.

Your honesty about this is refreshing. Your unintended consequence is, of course, that I or anyone else is equally at liberty to choose some, all or none of the rules as seems convenient to us, and that you are denying Jesus' own words.

Not at all—those regulations were intended to focus on the real meaning—they are a foreshadow of what is now superior.

Prayer is an important structure of the faith so I am not saying that the faithful should not pray, but that the adornment is not necessary to pray. So, I am not denying prayer which Jesus taught.

I do not wear a skull cap as do some of the Jews, I do not wear prayer shawls, none of these adornments are necessary. So when you pray Jesus taught go alone into a secret place.

The whole object of what Jesus taught is that devotion should not be a way to impress people.

Mat_6:5 "And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full.

A believer prays in their hearts, from a pure motive, and that is to see Yahweh exalted.

Pro_28:9 If anyone turns a deaf ear to the law, even his prayers are detestable.

So the Law still plays an important role in prayer—but what is prayer?

 

[Border Reiver]

Pro_28:9 If anyone turns a deaf ear to the law, even his prayers are detestable.

In other words, by picking and choosing which of the mitzvot to follow, you have made yourself detestable to Yahweh.

 

[abaddon]

Not at all—those regulations were intended to focus on the real meaning—they are a foreshadow of what is now superior.

Prayer is an important structure of the faith so I am not saying that the faithful should not pray, but that the adornment is not necessary to pray. So, I am not denying prayer which Jesus taught.

I do not wear a skull cap as do some of the Jews, I do not wear prayer shawls, none of these adornments are necessary. So when you pray Jesus taught go alone into a secret place.

The whole object of what Jesus taught is that devotion should not be a way to impress people.

Mat_6:5 "And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full.

So according to you, Jesus was wrong in Mat 5:18.

A believer prays in their hearts, from a pure motive, and that is to see Yahweh exalted.

Pro_28:9 If anyone turns a deaf ear to the law, even his prayers are detestable.

So the Law still plays an important role in prayer—but what is prayer?

You turn a deaf ear to the law by your own admission. Your prayers must therefore be detestable unto Yahweh, not to mention you calling his son a liar.

 

[halleyscomet]

The Ten Commands as listed in Exodus 20:1-17--These are those that Yahweh inscribed on the two stone tablets---there are additional laws that Yahweh passed on to Moses which Moses recorded.



There can only be these commandments that Yahweh spoke aloud to the Hebrews--the other commands and stipulation were recorded.



Deu 31:26 "Take this Book of the Law and place it beside the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God. There it will remain as a witness against you.



So, you SEE there were laws in addition to the Ten Commands, which were inscribed on the two stone tablets.



But you knew this!

Then it could be easy for you to list them numbered in the way you deem appropriate.

 

[halleyscomet]

No I did not say that—there are stipulations for Jews that live in Israel, and there is a covenant for Gentiles who convert to the faith in Christ.



Outward adornment, symbolises an inward devotion, so a converted person can have an inward devotion which will have an outward indication. So, an outward adornment does not indicate an inward devotion.



It is similar to people who wear crosses—this should indicate that a person has repented, but that is not the case, we see criminals wearing crosses. People think the cross will protect them, but that is not so.



No manmade object can have an influence on a person’s conduct. An object can indicate a person’s misbehaviour.



It is a pure heart that will indicate a persons faith.--- Mat_5:16 In the same way, let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and praise your Father in heaven.

And yet you claim keeping kosher is important, despite the fact that the food safety concerns that lead to the kosher laws in the first place are largely negated by modern food safety and animal husbandry.

How convenient for you that the only Mitzvot you "need" to follow are the ones that require no real sacrifice on your part.

Why don't you celebrate Passover? There are many Mitzvot about it. Your past "explanation" required you to flat out lie about the religious and social importance of Passover.

 

[halleyscomet]

Yes, they speak arabic and modern hebrew. But Mount Gerizim is holy to them so they will correct you if you say "har gerizim", and tell you it is "(h)argrizim".

I did not know that. Thank you. That's kind of cool, and does a great job explaining their version of the Ten Commandments.

 

[Paul Bethke]

And yet you claim keeping kosher is important, despite the fact that the food safety concerns that lead to the kosher laws in the first place are largely negated by modern food safety and animal husbandry.

How convenient for you that the only Mitzvot you "need" to follow are the ones that require no real sacrifice on your part.

Why don't you celebrate Passover? There are many Mitzvot about it. Your past "explanation" required you to flat out lie about the religious and social importance of Passover.

The keeping of the Kosher laws as outlined in Leviticus 11 is what Yahweh has specified to be avoided in order to be made holy—by avoiding the foods labelled as unclean, we acknowledge our allegiance to Yahweh the God of Israel.

Yahweh gave Adam a law not to eat fruit from a certain tree, even though the fruit was good for eating.

So, in the same way we who have faith adhere to these instructions.
Lev 11:44 I am the LORD your God; consecrate yourselves and be holy, because I am holy. Do not make yourselves unclean by any creature that moves about on the ground.

Now why would I lie about the Passover remembrance, I did not come out of Egypt, is it not a Hebrew remembrance time.

What we do is remember the death of Jesus in partaking of the communion that he stipulated--

Luk_22:19 And he took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, "This is my body given for you; do this in remembrance of me."

1Co_11:24 and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, "This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me."

1Co_11:25 In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me."

So, what Jesus stipulated Paul introduced to the Churches he established.

But you know this!

 

[Paul Bethke]

Then it could be easy for you to list them numbered in the way you deem appropriate.

But you can read them for yourself in Exodus 20 using the NIV—they are the ones inscribed on the Two stone tablets –there cannot be another version on different stone tablets.
Deu_5:22 These are the commandments the LORD proclaimed in a loud voice to your whole assembly there on the mountain from out of the fire, the cloud and the deep darkness; and he added nothing more. Then he wrote them on two stone tablets and gave them to me.

Now you know these things—the Ten Commands that make up the integral part of the faith, that were carried about by the Hebrews in their journeys.

Num 10:35 Whenever the ark set out, Moses said, "Rise up, O LORD! May your enemies be scattered; may your foes flee before you."
Num 10:36 Whenever it came to rest, he said, "Return, O LORD, to the countless thousands of Israel."

What was in the ark, only the two stone tablets---but you know that!

 

[halleyscomet]

But you can read them for yourself in Exodus 20 using the NIV—they are the ones inscribed on the Two stone tablets –there cannot be another version on different stone tablets.
Deu_5:22 These are the commandments the LORD proclaimed in a loud voice to your whole assembly there on the mountain from out of the fire, the cloud and the deep darkness; and he added nothing more. Then he wrote them on two stone tablets and gave them to me.

Now you know these things—the Ten Commands that make up the integral part of the faith, that were carried about by the Hebrews in their journeys.

Num 10:35 Whenever the ark set out, Moses said, "Rise up, O LORD! May your enemies be scattered; may your foes flee before you."
Num 10:36 Whenever it came to rest, he said, "Return, O LORD, to the countless thousands of Israel."

What was in the ark, only the two stone tablets---but you know that!

LOL!

Oh, you are adorable when you dance and weave to avoid giving a straight answer. You and I both know the two passages to which you refer are contradictory and multiple denominations have different ways of dividing them up. I merely asking how YOU divide them up.

As for the two stone tablets, so what? The two passages you keep pointing to can't even agree on what was supposedly ON those tablets. We can't exactly go to a museum and see them for ourselves. The tablets are irrelevant to this discussion as we have no accurate account of what was supposedly on them.

 

[halleyscomet]

In which Paul Bethke's Theology of Convenience is further highlighted

The keeping of the Kosher laws as outlined in Leviticus 11 is what Yahweh has specified to be avoided in order to be made holy—by avoiding the foods labelled as unclean, we acknowledge our allegiance to Yahweh the God of Israel.

Yahweh gave Adam a law not to eat fruit from a certain tree, even though the fruit was good for eating.

So, in the same way we who have faith adhere to these instructions.
Lev 11:44 I am the LORD your God; consecrate yourselves and be holy, because I am holy. Do not make yourselves unclean by any creature that moves about on the ground.

Now why would I lie about the Passover remembrance, I did not come out of Egypt, is it not a Hebrew remembrance time.

What we do is remember the death of Jesus in partaking of the communion that he stipulated--

Luk_22:19 And he took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, "This is my body given for you; do this in remembrance of me."

1Co_11:24 and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, "This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me."

1Co_11:25 In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me."

So, what Jesus stipulated Paul introduced to the Churches he established.

But you know this!

So you're extrapolating Communion to keeping kosher, yet DON'T extrapolate Paul's letter to the Corinthians about Christian dress and grooming to the Jewish dress and grooming laws.

Hypocritical AND Biblically illiterate. Nice double-play.

 

[JayUtah]

I do not practice this outward adornment...

There appear to be many mitzvot you don't practice, giving various excuses why not. This is exactly the problem. One cannot claim to be perfectly obedient when one makes excuses for non-compliance. One cannot claim to be more obedient than others when one gives the same excuses as those others for selective compliance.

We're asking you to reconcile this inherent disparity in your claims and evidence.