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Near death experiences

When I almost died I didn't have any visions or anything. I just started falling asleep. Found out later that if I hadn't been in the ER already I wouldn't have woken up from it. But no angels or demons or lights or shrieking monkey skeletons. I only get those when I'm alive and awake.
 
slipknot0129 said:
Yes it is. It would be boring if we were all skinny.
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Being fat carries increased risk of diabetes, coronary disease, cirrhosis and many other health problems. That's perfect? Increased susceptibility to health problems and mortality is perfect?

There are old people, and there are fat people. How may fat old people are there?

Yeah, being fat is perfect.
 
Fudbucker said:
Why would you assume that? We deal with unevidenced claims all the time. One of my students told me his dad was going to jail. A teacher I know casually mentioned she's been to China. My administrator said he taught for awhile in Chicago. Should I assume these claims are wrong unless I'm provided with evidence?
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False analogy. There is no reason to doubt that someone's been to jail, China or Chicago. Such trips are commonplace, and such places are well-evidenced. Further, people usually tell the truth. You'd be reasonably safe in betting money on the claim being true.

NDEs are comparatively rare and totally unwitnessed, and the person who "experiences" the phenomenon is in some kind of dream state. You have to depend solely on the testimony of someone who, quite literally, was not thinking clearly at the time. Only a fool would bet on those odds.

But, hey, it's your money.

This signature is intended to irritate people.
 
Fudbucker said:
Why would you assume that? We deal with unevidenced claims all the time.
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Yes, that was my point.

One of my students told me his dad was going to jail. A teacher I know casually mentioned she's been to China. My administrator said he taught for awhile in Chicago. Should I assume these claims are wrong unless I'm provided with evidence?
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Are those claims physically possible? Are they common occurances?

All claims are not equal. You're well aware of this, so why pretend like you don't know?
 
Fudbucker said:
I'm not making that argument. I'm pointing out that this phenomenon occurs in many people who are clinically dead, and claiming clinically dead people aren't "near death" is about as silly as the post that started this thread. I don't care what it "allows" people to claim, but the argument that NDE's are a misnomer because they don't happen to people near death is laughable. When someone is in cardiac arrest, and the ambulance is racing to get to them in time, is that because they're near death or not near death?
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The problem here is we don't know when these experiences actually occurred. Occam's razor dictates that they occur not during 'death', but either soon before or soon after. Indeed, in many cases aspects of the NDE occur without death or injury even on the horizon. Unless it can be proven that experiences occur during periods of zero brain activity then there's no evidence of them being in any way visionary (used in its spiritual meaning). Of course, that still leaves the significant mystery of what is occurring.
 
Beady said:
False analogy. There is no reason to doubt that someone's been to jail, China or Chicago. Such trips are commonplace, and such places are well-evidenced. Further, people usually tell the truth. You'd be reasonably safe in betting money on the claim being true.

NDEs are comparatively rare and totally unwitnessed, and the person who "experiences" the phenomenon is in some kind of dream state. You have to depend solely on the testimony of someone who, quite literally, was not thinking clearly at the time. Only a fool would bet on those odds.

But, hey, it's your money.

This signature is intended to irritate people.
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What are you betting on? That the NDE didn't happen? I don't know anyone who thinks all these people reporting NDE's are making it up. That's very implausible. It seems clear these people are having some kind of experience, and in some cases, it's extremely vivid and coherent.

Are you talking about the implications of NDE's? Are they evidence of an afterlife? That's going to depend a lot on your prior belief in an afterlife. An atheist would likely dismiss them solely as brain activity. An agnostic might think there's something interesting going on that can't fully be explained, or it might just be brain activity. A theist could easily incorporate NDE's into their theistic worldview. Which prior belief is correct?
 
Argumemnon said:
Yes, that was my point.



Are those claims physically possible? Are they common occurances?

All claims are not equal. You're well aware of this, so why pretend like you don't know?
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All claims are not equal, but I'm not going to dismiss the possibility of an afterlife because someone can't provide proof of it. We simply know too little about reality to make categorical claims about what happens after we die.
 
baron said:
The problem here is we don't know when these experiences actually occurred. Occam's razor dictates that they occur not during 'death', but either soon before or soon after. Indeed, in many cases aspects of the NDE occur without death or injury even on the horizon. Unless it can be proven that experiences occur during periods of zero brain activity then there's no evidence of them being in any way visionary (used in its spiritual meaning). Of course, that still leaves the significant mystery of what is occurring.
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Totally agree.
 
Fudbucker said:
What are you betting on?
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To clarify: I don't doubt that Near Death Experiences happen, I just wouldn't put my money on them reflecting reality. They are far more likely to be akin to dreams. But, as I said, it's your money and you are perfectly free to play the long shot.

Are you talking about the implications of NDE's?
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As you might surmise, I see no *evidence* that they signify anything other than, perhaps, the individual's own conviction they are within a hair's breadth from death.

As I said in an earlier post* there is nothing inherent in atheism that speaks in any way to an afterlife. Even heaven is "possible," although the conversation is more likely to revolve around spirits, ghosts and orbs. Again, though, there is no *evidence* other than the anecdotal.

And as I also said earlier, there *is* hard, testable, repeatable and verifiable evidence that an Afterlife *shouldn't* exist. In sum, the *possibility* of an afterlife exists, even as an atheist, but as a critical thinker, the *probability* is that it doesn't.

Again, on which side do you want to place your money?

*Post #48

This signature is intended to irritate people.
 
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Fudbucker said:
All claims are not equal, but I'm not going to dismiss the possibility of an afterlife because someone can't provide proof of it. We simply know too little about reality to make categorical claims about what happens after we die.
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I am. Some kind of evidence is needed to accept the existence of an afterlife.
Everything we know about biology implies that consciousness is a product of physical processes, and our minds do not 'go elsewhere' when those processes stop, anymore than a flame 'goes elsewhere' when you blow out a candle.
Also, the stories about the various afterlives appear to be so intensely culturally determined and conflicting that at least to me it is more likely that they are all some kind of cultural narrative than that they're either all real, or that one of them is correct and the thousands of others are wrong.

I am willing to revise my opinion if the evidence is presented, and I am not emotionally attached to my view (heck, I think I'd prefer to have an immortal soul instead of being a self-aware meat robot). But as it stands, I see no other option than saying that there's probably nothing after death.
 
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