Corbyn's days (very) numbered?

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

Oh I see. When you said he's in "a middle ground between incoherent and flawlessly accurate. You know the one that contains about 99.9 percent of human beings" you didn't mean he's in, you know, a middle ground, you meant he's at the top 1% of that group! It all makes sense now. See, I thought you were saying he was nothing special in this field when all along you were simply asserting he was better than 98.9% of people, not 99.9%. Thanks for pointing out my silly error.

I see you are fond of the false dichotomy. It's perfectly believable to me that someone would be coherent enough to be elected and yet not infallible in their speech. I suggest Boris Johnson as an example.

You didn't answer my question, but if you post a couple of these 'gaffs' to illustrate your point I'll take a look at them.

Did you ask a question? Oh you mean why didn't he immediately correct himself? Because he didn't think at the time he had said anything wrong, and probably still doesn't. When and if challenged on it he probably dug in his heels. Because he doesn't think what he said means what you think it means. And it doesn't. But nonetheless it is still clumsy wording when read written down and in the context of trying to prove a point.

But don't worry he's also a homophobe, a hater of people with mental illness, he pushes people down stairwells, compares people to Nazi prison guards, Radko Mladic, and preaches fire and brimstone on those who don't vote for him.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...vingstone-apology-over-gay-gaffe-6661794.html

http://www.theweek.co.uk/uk-news/45190/ken-livingstone-short-history-controversial-gaffes

In fact, the Mirror branded him Labour's own Prince Philip. So no I wouldn't go with renowned for his articulation and acumen. In fact, quite the opposite. He's a renowned ********.

 

[jimbob]

They are based on the fact that accusations of antisemitism are the one and only tactic employed by defenders of Zionism. Personally I have been accused of antisemitism on this spurious ground many times. So I must be one too, eh? Here's an exercise for you. What was the occasion of the accusations in these cases? Beating up Jews? Desecrating synagogues or Jewish cemeteries, or doing the other things we find frequently among fascists or the extreme right? I bet all the accusations against these fifty people involved Israel, or were in association with some person connected to the issue of Zionism. I bet not one of these alleged antisemites was accused of desecrating a synagogue, or beating a Jew, or anything like that. But have a look and let me know. DId anyone abuse the residents of Golders Green or Stoke Newington? No?

What you should be waiting for is jimbob to justify this statement with the evidence appropriate to such a grave accusation, or indeed with any evidence whatever.

... fellow travellers who are holocaust deniers. (Why that is hard left, I'm not entirely sure, but it's fairly common in the far left).​

ETA. By the standards of Zionist apologists I'm not only antisemitic, but genocidal. Read this

Crucially, however, Zionism is not just a theoretical construct. If it was, it would be perfectly legitimate to oppose it, but since 1948, Zionism has also been a political reality. That reality is Israel. Opposing the state of Israel, the practical manifestation of Zionism, is to oppose the democratic wishes of nine million people and endorse the destruction of a vibrant living Jewish state. That’s not theoretical, it’s genocidal​

Paul Eisen is a fellow traveller.

David Irving (surprisingly) has been complimentary

he's shared a platform with Raed Salah (who hasn't denied the holocaust as far as I know, but has promoted the blood libel)

Stephen Sizer might just be careless in linking to a site blaming Jews for 9/11, but he'd previously agreed to have his social media output checked following previous complaints. That strikes me as more than careless.


Admittedly only one of these is actually a Holocaust denier who Corbyn has chosen to associate with, but he attracts conspiracy theorists who include Jews as the conspiracy.

@ArchieGemmilGoal

You said that the mural looked just like white bankers to you. I thought it looked like 1930's German propaganda cartoons of Jews

http://hurryupharry.org/2012/10/05/i-was-wrong-about-the-mural/

He wrote: “A group of conservatives do not like my mural and are playing a race card with me. My mural is about class and privilege. The banker group is made up of Jewish and white Anglos. For some reason they are saying I am antisemitic. This I am most definitely not… What I am against is class.”

The illustration is actually a very clear exposition of Ockerman’s worldview. There’s a huge masonic world conspiracy, involving financiers and capitalists, who are thematically (but not exclusively) rich Jews.

His objection to being thought an antisemite is also worth examining. What Ockerman is essentially saying is “you don’t understand my conspiracy theory properly”. His point is that his conspiracy theory include Jews: but only as a component of the capitalist-illuminati-masonic conspiracy. And even then, not all Jews. Just rich Jews: the embodiment of Capitalism.



Ockerman really does not think that this is a racist perspective. He either doesn’t recognise the very ancient history of the rendering of Jews as the epitome of Capitalist exploiters (not to mention the Communist enslavers). Or he thinks that this is just, well, true. Moreover, he thinks that he’s essentially engaged in a “class” rather than a “racial” struggle.

ETA: I think it could have been a classic dogwhistle - The mural painter's description of his subject is pretty much what I had thought based on my history lessons, but I could see how it might have been missed.

Corbyn does give succor to antisemites, almost unconsciously, possibly due to the his CT thinking - as witnessed by his own comments about 9/11

 

[jimbob]

There's also Jackie Walker who keeps getting into hot water about antisemitic comments.

She was the vice chair of Momentum.

 

[baron]

Did you ask a question? Oh you mean why didn't he immediately correct himself? Because he didn't think at the time he had said anything wrong, and probably still doesn't.

You got that right.

When and if challenged on it he probably dug in his heels. Because he doesn't think what he said means what you think it means. And it doesn't. But nonetheless it is still clumsy wording when read written down and in the context of trying to prove a point.

But don't worry he's also a homophobe, a hater of people with mental illness, he pushes people down stairwells, compares people to Nazi prison guards, Radko Mladic, and preaches fire and brimstone on those who don't vote for him.

How clumsy is this guy? Not only do people falsely believe he's an antisemite, they falsely believe he's a homophobe, and falsely believe he's a bigot, and falsely believe all sorts of negative things about him. Poor misunderstood man, he's just trying to enunciate his liberal values but people keep getting the wrong end of the stick. Maybe he should be the subject of a Viz cartoon - 'Ken Livingstone - Will He Never Learn!?'

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...vingstone-apology-over-gay-gaffe-6661794.html

http://www.theweek.co.uk/uk-news/45190/ken-livingstone-short-history-controversial-gaffes

In fact, the Mirror branded him Labour's own Prince Philip. So no I wouldn't go with renowned for his articulation and acumen. In fact, quite the opposite. He's a renowned ********.

On the contrary, he articulated very well. Everybody seemed to understand what he said first time, and when challenged he frequently doubled down. For example, when informed that the reporter he'd just called a Nazi was Jewish, he didn't reply, "Sorry, no offence meant," he actually built on his original accusation by equating him with a concentration camp guard.

Since you bring up Prince Phillip, I agree. They both share the trait of speaking their minds.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

How clumsy is this guy? Not only do people falsely believe he's an antisemite, they falsely believe he's a homophobe, and falsely believe he's a bigot, and falsely believe all sorts of negative things about him. Poor misunderstood man, he's just trying to enunciate his liberal values but people keep getting the wrong end of the stick. Maybe he should be the subject of a Viz cartoon - 'Ken Livingstone - Will He Never Learn!?'

And some fools falsely believe he is renowned for his articulation and acumen... something which seems harder to swallow than any of the above accusations.

You seem to have forgotten what your argument was in the race to jump on Livingstone here.

 

[trustbutverify]

Corbyn does give succor to antisemites, almost unconsciously, possibly due to the his CT thinking - as witnessed by his own comments about 9/11[/COLOR]

I'm not convinced on how unconscious it really is. It seems to depend on Corbyn's assessment of the current political environment, at any given time. I have no doubt he's given more than a wink or two to the...let's call it the (((anti-elitist))) wing of labour. I believe he knows what he's doing, even when he might not do it particularly well.

 

[baron]

And some fools falsely believe he is renowned for his articulation and acumen... something which seems harder to swallow than any of the above accusations.

Of course, he's just a bumbling idiot who's had a 50 year run of bad luck in that his statements are always being taken out of context. He means to say one thing and it comes out the opposite. Doh! Easily done. Actually, perhaps he's the victim of a Zionist plot! That would suit your argument better, I think, because if you're going to deny half the facts why not go the whole hog, do away with any semblance of reasonable assessment and fabricate an altogether more exciting framework for your inventions.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

Of course, he's just a bumbling idiot who's had a 50 year run of bad luck in that his statements are always being taken out of context. He means to say one thing and it comes out the opposite. Doh! Easily done. Actually, perhaps he's the victim of a Zionist plot! That would suit your argument better, I think, because if you're going to deny half the facts why not go the whole hog, do away with any semblance of reasonable assessment and fabricate an altogether more exciting framework for your inventions.

Edited by jsfisher: 

<snip> Edited for compliance with Rule 12 of the Membership Agreement.

 

[Craig B]

If that's what you take from my comment then fine. And have a nice day back, and I hope you don't get accused too much of antisemitism (I know I won't be accused at all).

To you, accusations of antisemitism made by Zionists necessarily entail guilt, which is convenient for them. But that's nothing, as you have seen: cos all antizionists commit genocide, it would appear. Try to hope that even though I'm accused of that, I won't be found guilty of it.

Or does that concept (reality) have any significance in the zany world of alt-Right apocalyptic messianism which is modern Zionism?

 

[baron]

To you, accusations of antisemitism made by Zionists necessarily entail guilt, which is convenient for them. But that's nothing, as you have seen: cos all antizionists commit genocide, it would appear. Try to hope that even though I'm accused of that, I won't be found guilty of it.

Or does that concept (reality) have any significance in the zany world of alt-Right apocalyptic messianism which is modern Zionism?

Do you think that is a sensible and reasonable response to repeated evidenced allegations that multiple people in the Labour party, and other left-leaning groups, have been accused for antisemitism? That it's a Zionist plot and anybody critical of the Israeli government is being accused of genocide?

 

[Craig B]

Do you think that is a sensible and reasonable response to repeated evidenced allegations that multiple people in the Labour party, and other left-leaning groups, have been accused for antisemitism? That it's a Zionist plot and anybody critical of the Israeli government is being accused of genocide?

Find someone who says it's a "Zionist plot". I didn't. If the allegations - of Holocaust denial, by the way - are "evidenced", then for heaven's sake produce the evidence I have invited you to deliver ... and stop dancing round the topic of Zionist allegations of antisemitism like a cat prowling round a bowl of hot porridge. Until you do, have a nice day.

 

[baron]

Find someone who says it's a "Zionist plot". I didn't.

Alleging that every accusation of antisemitism against the 50+ people in question is by Zionists sounds like a Zionist plot to me. What else could it possibly be?

If the allegations - of Holocaust denial, by the way - are "evidenced", then for heaven's sake produce the evidence I have invited you to deliver ... and stop dancing round the topic of Zionist allegations of antisemitism like a cat prowling round a bowl of hot porridge. Until you do, have a nice day.

Maybe go back and read my posts. Oh, I forgot, you believe a leftist cannot be antisemitic unless they stand up and actually declare, "I DENY THE HOLOCAUST EVER HAPPENED!" Anything else, such as claiming holocaust deniers to be friends or stating Jews are not welcome in the UK, is of course simply a pesky misunderstanding brought about by Zionists.

 

[Craig B]

Alleging that every accusation of antisemitism against the 50+ people in question is by Zionists sounds like a Zionist plot to me. What else could it possibly be?



Maybe go back and read my posts. Oh, I forgot, you believe a leftist cannot be antisemitic unless they stand up and actually declare, "I DENY THE HOLOCAUST EVER HAPPENED!" Anything else, such as claiming holocaust deniers to be friends or stating Jews are not welcome in the UK, is of course simply a pesky misunderstanding brought about by Zionists.

Give me this evidence in the normal way, as I requested.

Find someone who says it's a "Zionist plot". I didn't. If the allegations - of Holocaust denial, by the way - are "evidenced", then for heaven's sake produce the evidence I have invited you to deliver ... and stop dancing round the topic of Zionist allegations of antisemitism like a cat prowling round a bowl of hot porridge. Until you do, have a nice day.​

 

[jimbob]

Find someone who says it's a "Zionist plot". I didn't. If the allegations - of Holocaust denial, by the way - are "evidenced", then for heaven's sake produce the evidence I have invited you to deliver ... and stop dancing round the topic of Zionist allegations of antisemitism like a cat prowling round a bowl of hot porridge. Until you do, have a nice day.

I mentioned that Corbyn has supported charities founded by Paul Eisen - after his Holocaust denial was well known.

David Irvine is a fan

Holocaust denial is a bit of a red herring, and I admit that I can only find one who Corbyn has supported as opposed to visa versa.

However there is plenty of evidence of Corbyn supporting people who have records of antisemitic statements, and some pretty unpleasant conspiracy theories about Jews. Note that I am not talking about people making anti Zionist statements. For the record, I think that there should be a two-state solution and that Israel should remove its settlers from the West Bank, but I have always seen every reason for Israel to remain on the Golan Heights given the danger posed by the Syrian regime.

Jackie Walker (Vice Chair of Momentum) certainly seems to have a bee in her bonnet about Jews. (HufPo article and video of her statements)

Raed Salah has said the following "We [Muslims] have never allowed ourselves to knead [the dough for] the bread that breaks the fast in the holy month of Ramadan with children's blood. Whoever wants a more thorough explanation, let him ask what used to happen to some children in Europe, whose blood was mixed in with the dough of the [Jewish] holy bread"

So whilst that is not Holacaust denial, it's a very ancient bit of anti Jewish Propaganda (dating back to the Medieval period)​

Stephen Sizer has promoted anti Jewish conspiracy theories about 9/11

Corbyn supported the mural painted by Kalen Ockerman, AKA Mear One - he wrote a message in support of his mural on facebook. ETA: THis mural, again used imagry of Jews dating back to the Medieval period.

Kalen Ockerman doesn't even realise that his depiction of Jewish bankers oppressing the poor is antisemitic:

He wrote: “A group of conservatives do not like my mural and are playing a race card with me. My mural is about class and privilege. The banker group is made up of Jewish and white Anglos. For some reason they are saying I am antisemitic. This I am most definitely not… What I am against is class.”

Corbyn has taken money from PressTV which is a mouthpiece of the Iranian Regime.

Then there is Dyab Abou Jahjahwhose group had been fined for promoting a cartoon implying that the Holacaust was made up by the Jews. His defence seems pretty flimsy to me (reuters story)

The cartoon shows two men in Auschwitz looking at several dead bodies. "I don't think they are Jews," says one man. The one man replies: "We have to get to the 6,000,000 (figure) somehow'. Six million Jews were killed during the Holocaust.

The Dutch group says it had no intention of disputing the Holocaust, but wanted instead to highlight what it described as double standards in free speech.

If we widen the catchment to the far Left (just in the UK) as opposed to just Corbyn supporters, then a lot of the Respect Party uses language about "Zionists" that have historically been used about Jews

The 2012 Chair of Tower Hamlets Respect Party wrote that Zionists are “cockroaches” who “hide in the dark and try to create havoc where they lay their eggs” and that those “slimy, vile, hard skin bugs need to be stomped out”​

There are plenty of others.

I agree that few are Holacaust deniers though. Just some prominent ones.

 

[baron]

Give me this evidence in the normal way, as I requested.

Find someone who says it's a "Zionist plot". I didn't. If the allegations - of Holocaust denial, by the way - are "evidenced", then for heaven's sake produce the evidence I have invited you to deliver ... and stop dancing round the topic of Zionist allegations of antisemitism like a cat prowling round a bowl of hot porridge. Until you do, have a nice day.​

Ah, so you're not only changing the goalposts (see below), you're also ignoring the entirety of my posts on the subject. Good going.

Here is what you were disputing with me (your discussions with other posters are irrelevant).

So they don't in fact deny the holocaust and they don't in fact promote antisemitism.

But apparently that's now changed to denying the holocaust, and only that, actually stating it explicitly in as many words. Apparently being friends with holocaust deniers and sharing the stage with holocaust deniers and attracting praise from holocaust deniers and refusing to condemn holocaust deniers doesn't count.

 

[Craig B]

Ah, so you're not only changing the goalposts (see below), you're also ignoring the entirety of my posts on the subject. Good going.

Here is what you were disputing with me (your discussions with other posters are irrelevant).



But apparently that's now changed to denying the holocaust, and only that, actually stating it explicitly in as many words. Apparently being friends with holocaust deniers and sharing the stage with holocaust deniers and attracting praise from holocaust deniers and refusing to condemn holocaust deniers doesn't count.

Fear not. My discussions with you are equally irrelevant, and are now at an end.

 

[baron]

Fear not. My discussions with you are equally irrelevant, and are now at an end.

Argument by flouncing.

 

[Noztradamus]

Problem with Anti Zionism is that that horse left the barn around 1948.
Now if you want to criticize current Israeli policy, that is one thing. I don't like Bibi very much and think the settlement policy is idiotic. But to strongly imply that Israel should be destroyed, then dodge the question of what would happen to the Five or Six Millioin Jews living in Israel is another.

Well the late Helen Thomas said they should go back to Germany. (As if Germany doesn't already have problem with immigrants.)

 

[dudalb]

Well the late Helen Thomas said they should go back to Germany. (As if Germany doesn't already have problem with immigrants.)

Helen Thomas was a sad,really. In her last few years she totally destroyed her reputation as a Journalist with her Anti Semitic rants.

 

[lupus_in_fabula]

People will probably be debating the electability of Corbyn even if Labour wins.

He has as much chance of taking Labour to victory as me.

Figuring you wouldn't have encountered the same kind of smear campaign by the press as Corbyn, you really could have become PM as well.