Corbyn's days (very) numbered?

[jimbob]

I'd like to see some evidence for this. I've been active on the hard (and soft) left for many years and while I've met many a raging **cough**, anti-Zionist, **cough** I've not yet met a real holocaust denier.

Do you mean when the people on the left share platforms with bigots they shouldn't be anywhere near who are holocaust deniers?

The latter. The comment about the hard left was tempered from some encounters at university where to a non-Jewish person (culturally CofE), it seemed that the line had been crossed from anti Israeli settlement to anti Israel and beyond to anti Jew. Maybe it was just some very vocal SWP people I came across - it was 20-years ago.



https://www.theguardian.com/politic...s-jeremy-corbyn-associating-holocaust-deniers

He does seem to be wilfully blind:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...remy-corbyn-as-dossier-of-anti-semitism-in-l/

That mural looks remarkably antisemitic to me (again based on nothing but a sense of history, and I don't think any particular reason to be culturally sensitive to this).

Someone pointed out this leftfoot forward blogpost talking about it

https://leftfootforward.org/2015/06/an-open-letter-to-jeremy-corbyn/


DO NOT READ BELOW THE LINE

Also, I would be embarrassed if David Irving supported me.


To me, it seems that Corbyn has a tendency to a simplistic analysis the US has undoubtedly done bad things, so anyone opposing them are the good guys. Ditto for Israeli settlements and the Israeli state.

I'm ready to be persuaded that the above is a harsh caricature (it's my own impression only) but I haven't seen anything to demonstrate that he can appreciate that situations are often complex.

As an aside, this blogpost in the Spectator is pretty accurate in my view:

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/08/shouldnt-vote-jeremy-corbyn/

 

[Craig B]

@jimbob. You state that

... holocaust deniers. (Why that is hard left, I'm not entirely sure, but it's fairly common in the far left).​

and when challenged to substantiate this serious charge, the best you can come up with is:

The comment about the hard left was tempered from some encounters at university where to a non-Jewish person (culturally CofE), it seemed that the line had been crossed from anti Israeli settlement to anti Israel and beyond to anti Jew. Maybe it was just some very vocal SWP people I came across - it was 20-years ago.​

What nonsense! Do you have no sense of shame at spouting such slanders? Or are allegations of Holocaust denial to be thrown at anyone who embarks on "anti-Israeli settlement" observations.

Now, I have no love for the SWP, but I have yet to meet a Holocaust denier in their ranks. Give me details of when you met such a person and what form this denial took - but of course opposition to settlements in occupied territories is the same as Holocaust denial, isn't it? Next it'll be the same as Holocaust perpetration, I have no doubt.

This'll start poor Camillus **coughing** again, I fear.

 

[jimbob]

@jimbob. You state that

... holocaust deniers. (Why that is hard left, I'm not entirely sure, but it's fairly common in the far left).​

and when challenged to substantiate this serious charge, the best you can come up with is:

The comment about the hard left was tempered from some encounters at university where to a non-Jewish person (culturally CofE), it seemed that the line had been crossed from anti Israeli settlement to anti Israel and beyond to anti Jew. Maybe it was just some very vocal SWP people I came across - it was 20-years ago.​

What nonsense! Do you have no sense of shame at spouting such slanders? Or are allegations of Holocaust denial to be thrown at anyone who embarks on "anti-Israeli settlement" observations.

Now, I have no love for the SWP, but I have yet to meet a Holocaust denier in their ranks. Give me details of when you met such a person and what form this denial took - but of course opposition to settlements in occupied territories is the same as Holocaust denial, isn't it? Next it'll be the same as Holocaust perpetration, I have no doubt.

This'll start poor Camillus **coughing** again, I fear.

As I said, it was twenty years ago and I admitted that it was probably unfair on the SWP (or whatever group they were).

Regardless of my personal anecdote, which explained why I found it easier to believe the charge that Corbyn has fellow travellers who have crossed from valid campaigning to anti Jew.

Corbyn has shared a platform with Paul Eisen who is a (Jewish) holocaust denier and who has supported Corbyn since then.

Here he is in his own words on the Holocaust...
http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/?p=64860

On its own, that might be unfortunate, but it isn't, supporting a mural of Jewish bankers on the backs of the poor has... more than unfortunate historical connotations. Hosting a preacher who *literally* promotes the blood libel is another unfortunate coincidence. In this context, talking about friends in Hamas and Hezbollah is at best a tin-eared approach.

 

[Craig B]

As I said, it was twenty years ago and I admitted that it was probably unfair on the SWP (or whatever group they were).

Regardless of my personal anecdote, which explained why I found it easier to believe the charge that Corbyn has fellow travellers who have crossed from valid campaigning to anti Jew.

Corbyn has shared a platform with Paul Eisen who is a (Jewish) holocaust denier and who has supported Corbyn since then.

Here he is in his own words on the Holocaust...
http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/?p=64860

On its own, that might be unfortunate, but it isn't, supporting a mural of Jewish bankers on the backs of the poor has... more than unfortunate historical connotations. Hosting a preacher who *literally* promotes the blood libel is another unfortunate coincidence. In this context, talking about friends in Hamas and Hezbollah is at best a tin-eared approach.

You should justify what you wrote, i.e.

holocaust deniers. (Why that is hard left, I'm not entirely sure, but it's fairly common in the far left).​

To suggest that it is common in a particular political group is not the same as stating that a particular person has had an "unfortunate coincidence" of has a "tin eared approach" or that something has "unfortunate connotations". Is holocaust denial common in the hard left or not? If you say it is common, give me evidence that it is common. Does Corbyn deny the Holocaust? Are you saying that?

Denunciation of settlements in occupied territory is indeed common. I do that vehemently myself. Does that make me a "Holocaust denier"? Is that what this is about?

ETA Here is from a report from the Jewish Chronicle Aug 18, 2015 on Corbyn's contact with Eisen. Do you have anything stronger than this?

Marcus Dysch, August 18, 2015
Revealed: Jeremy Corbyn attended event hosted by Holocaust denier's group in 2013
Jeremy Corbyn attended an event run by Holocaust denier Paul Eisen’s charity in 2013, despite his claim not to have had any contact with the group in recent years.

The Labour leadership frontrunner attended a Deir Yassin Remembered commemoration in St John’s Wood Church, north west London, in April 2013.

The group was founded by Mr Eisen.

In an interview on Channel 4 News on Monday, Mr Corbyn said he had met Eisen 15 years ago, before it was publicly known that the activist was a Shoah denier.

But he added: “I have no contact whatsoever now with Paul Eisen and Deir Yassin Remembered. I did attend a number of events concerning DYR some years ago, I think two or three of them. The only donation would have been in a collection bucket going round the room, that’s all.

“Fifteen years ago he certainly was not a Holocaust denier, had he been a Holocaust denier or stated he was, I would have had nothing to do with him. Obviously Holocaust denial is vile and wrong.”

However a post on the DYR website shows Mr Corbyn attending the April 2013 event. It is not clear whether Mr Eisen was also at the commemoration.​

(My bolding) You have said Corbyn shared a platform with Eisen. Do you have details on the circumstances of that platform sharing?

 

[baron]

Could we have examples of this, and evidence that it's "fairly common"?

Ken Livingston is a candidate. OK, so he didn't explicitly deny the holocaust happened but he did say it was sort of an accident, and that Hitler was actually a big fan of Zionism. He also stated that hating Jews was not antisemitic as long as said Jews lived in Israel. I'm not sure what comprised the views of the other 50+ people suspended from 'new' Labour for antisemitism.

 

[Craig B]

Ken Livingston is a candidate. OK, so he didn't explicitly deny the holocaust happened but he did say it was sort of an accident, and that Hitler was actually a big fan of Zionism. He also stated that hating Jews was not antisemitic as long as said Jews lived in Israel. I'm not sure what comprised the views of the other 50+ people suspended from 'new' Labour for antisemitism.

Were they expelled for denying the Holocaust? The "common" Holocaust deniers on the hard left don't explicitly deny the Holocaust happened? What kind of denial is that? But they say that hating Jews isn't antisemitism as long as the Jews live in Israel. I'll need an explicit quote and a source for that, I'm afraid. Currently you only have this, which is nothing. A columnist "summing up".

As the Haaretz columnist Anshel Pfeffer summed up Livingstone’s three days of interventions: “His historical version of the Holocaust was only slightly more bizarre than his contention that someone who only hates Jews living in Israel – but not outside it – cannot be considered an anti-Semite.”​

Otherwise we may be back to the "opposing settlements on occupied territories is equivalent to Holocaust denial; the hard left opposes settlements; therefore the hard left engages in Holocaust denial" sort of argument.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

As I said, it was twenty years ago and I admitted that it was probably unfair on the SWP (or whatever group they were).

Regardless of my personal anecdote, which explained why I found it easier to believe the charge that Corbyn has fellow travellers who have crossed from valid campaigning to anti Jew.

Corbyn has shared a platform with Paul Eisen who is a (Jewish) holocaust denier and who has supported Corbyn since then.

Here he is in his own words on the Holocaust...
http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/?p=64860

On its own, that might be unfortunate, but it isn't, supporting a mural of Jewish bankers on the backs of the poor has... more than unfortunate historical connotations. Hosting a preacher who *literally* promotes the blood libel is another unfortunate coincidence. In this context, talking about friends in Hamas and Hezbollah is at best a tin-eared approach.

Maybe I'm just detuned to it but that mural just looked like some old white guys to me.

 

[MikeG]

William Hague has called for the repeal of the Fixed Term Parliaments Act, and a quick general election. I don't read the Tediograph, but here's the full article.

Although this call has been rejected by Downing Street, might it have been a useful mercy killing for Labour, enabling it to purge the party of Momentum after a near wipe-out at the polls? Instead, they face 3 years of drip-drip-drip decline, plot and counter-plot, the revised Parliamentary boundaries, and then destruction in the general election.

 

[Craig B]

William Hague has called for the repeal of the Fixed Term Parliaments Act, and a quick general election. I don't read the Tediograph, but here's the full article.

Although this call has been rejected by Downing Street, might it have been a useful mercy killing for Labour, enabling it to purge the party of Momentum after a near wipe-out at the polls? Instead, they face 3 years of drip-drip-drip decline, plot and counter-plot, the revised Parliamentary boundaries, and then destruction in the general election.

According to Hague, fixed term was introduced solely to bamboozle the Lib Dems into trusting their Tory coalition partners, but now the situation has changed and it would be more expedient to dispense with fixed term parliaments, so how about it? Very principled. What surprises me is that these mountebanks not only think along such lines, but take for granted that everyone else will too. So they get the Torygraph to trumpet the message.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

I wouldn't mind a general election but it would appear to be a rather shameless ploy by the Tories to legitimise their unelected leader and ridiculous hard Brexit line.

 

[MikeG]

Well I happen to agree with you, Craig, although I wouldn't describe it as "bamboozling the Lib Dems" as it was their idea in the first place. I think fixed terms are an improvement on the previous way of doing things, and am glad that Downing Street has ruled it out.

 

[baron]

Were they expelled for denying the Holocaust?

I don't know, you'd have to research that. If they were expelled for denying the impact of the holocaust, or trying to justify it, would that be any better?

The "common" Holocaust deniers on the hard left don't explicitly deny the Holocaust happened? What kind of denial is that?

Normally no, because they're not retarded. But they are happy to tacitly endorse these views by associating with Islamists and Islamist groups who do and to call them 'friends'. Indeed, Corbyn has received the ultimate endorsement for his views on the matter, by David Irving, who called him a 'fine man' with whom he is 'impressed'.

But they say that hating Jews isn't antisemitism as long as the Jews live in Israel. I'll need an explicit quote and a source for that, I'm afraid.

Then allow me:

Blurring these two things [criticising Israel and being antisemitic] undermines the real importance of antisemitism, because a real antisemite doesn't just hate the Jews in Israel, they hate their Jewish neighbour in Golders Green or in Stoke Newington. It's a physical loathing.

In other words, if you only hate Jews in Israel you're not a 'real' antisemite. Can't get much clearer than that.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

Can't get much clearer than that.

I think you certainly could get clearer than that. His wording is terrible but your conclusion is assuming the least charitable interpretation and reiterating it in even strong terms.

 

[Craig B]

I don't know, you'd have to research that. If they were expelled for denying the impact of the holocaust, or trying to justify it, would that be any better?

Normally no, because they're not retarded. But they are happy to tacitly endorse these views by associating with Islamists and Islamist groups who do and to call them 'friends'. Indeed, Corbyn has received the ultimate endorsement for his views on the matter, by David Irving, who called him a 'fine man' with whom he is 'impressed'.

So they don't in fact deny the holocaust and they don't in fact promote antisemitism. But they do "objectively" by association with opponents of Zionism. This is worthy of Yezhov's indictments in the show trials.

David Irving admires Corbyn? Irving is a liar who has an interest in causing trouble and falsely representing other people as antisemites to mitigate his own isolation. Perhaps you can tell me whether Corbyn admires Irving. That would be relevant.

Then allow me:In other words, if you only hate Jews in Israel you're not a 'real' antisemite. Can't get much clearer than that.

That is completely and obviously false. Here is what you quote.

Blurring these two things [criticising Israel and being antisemitic] undermines the real importance of antisemitism, because a real antisemite doesn't just hate the Jews in Israel, they hate their Jewish neighbour in Golders Green or in Stoke Newington. It's a physical loathing.​

What is the meaning here of the word "just", please? A real antisemite would hate Jews in Israel, and would hate Jews in Stoke Newington. Hating Jews in Israel is antisemitism, according to that statement. Your interpretation can't possibly be honest. What happens is that when people criticise Israel, they are accused of hating Jews in Israel, and thus of antisemitism. But Livingstone is stating: antizionism is not antisemitism. If it was, the antizionist would hate Jews in Israel, which Livingstone does not, and would also hate Jews elsewhere, which nobody even accuses the Left antizionists of.

I don't believe you when you interpret that as you do, and then state it could not be clearer. You have been blinded by political prejudice to the plain meaning of the expression you cite, to interpret your exegesis as charitably as possible.

So give me antisemitism in Corbyn's or Livingstone's words please. Obviously anything can be asserted if you ascribe "other words" to people, or refer to them doing things "tacitly".

Hey, I was told that not merely antisemitism but Holocaust denial was common on the left. If that is true, it should be easy to produce proof of it. Do so.

 

[baron]

So they don't in fact deny the holocaust and they don't in fact promote antisemitism.

Sure, they were all expelled from the party for antisemitism because they never indulged in antisemitism. That sounds logical.

But they do "objectively" by association with opponents of Zionism. This is worthy of Yezhov's indictments in the show trials.

You insist on fixating on holocaust denial but when I list groups who explicitly deny the holocaust you call them 'opponents of Zionism'. Dear oh dear.

David Irving admires Corbyn? Irving is a liar who has an interest in causing trouble and falsely representing other people as antisemites to mitigate his own isolation.

So you'll have no problems citing a few instances of Irving going on the record about admiring people who are demonstrably not antisemitic. Two or three examples will do and I'll concede that point.

Perhaps you can tell me whether Corbyn admires Irving. That would be relevant.

I have no idea whether he does or not, although I'm sure if he actually stated as much you'd find a way to twist his words, just like you brush aside him calling holocaust deniers his 'friends'.

That is completely and obviously false. Here is what you quote.

Blurring these two things [criticising Israel and being antisemitic] undermines the real importance of antisemitism, because a real antisemite doesn't just hate the Jews in Israel, they hate their Jewish neighbour in Golders Green or in Stoke Newington. It's a physical loathing.​

What is the meaning here of the word "just", please? A real antisemite would hate Jews in Israel, and would hate Jews in Stoke Newington. Hating Jews in Israel is antisemitism, according to that statement.

Stop trying to redefine the English language to wriggle out of the clear implications. The sentence "...a real antisemite doesn't just hate the Jews in Israel.." directly implies that anybody who does only 'hate the Jews in Israel' is not an antisemite. This is basic English comprehension.

Your interpretation can't possibly be honest. What happens is that when people criticise Israel, they are accused of hating Jews in Israel, and thus of antisemitism.

No, he stated that hating Jews in Israel is not, on its own, a sign of antisemitism. You honestly think that's the same as saying, "Hating the Israeli government is not a sign of antisemitism."? Jews. In. Israel. Read the sentence. A bit like when George Galloway stated

We don't want any Israeli goods, we don't want any Israeli services, we don't want any Israeli academics coming to the university or the college, we don't even want any Israeli tourists to come to Bradford, even if any of them had thought of doing so.

Oh, there's another one.

But Livingstone is stating: antizionism is not antisemitism. If it was, the antizionist would hate Jews in Israel, which Livingstone does not, and would also hate Jews elsewhere, which nobody even accuses the Left antizionists of.

I don't believe you when you interpret that as you do, and then state it could not be clearer. You have been blinded by political prejudice to the plain meaning of the expression you cite, to interpret your exegesis as charitably as possible.

Basic English, I can't help you further.

So give me antisemitism in Corbyn's or Livingstone's words please. Obviously anything can be asserted if you ascribe "other words" to people, or refer to them doing things "tacitly".

I get it, for a leftist to be antisemitic they need to state it in as many words. It's not enough to call holocaust deniers and Jew haters 'friends', to directly imply antisemitism, to share a stage and associate with holocaust deniers, to speak out against Israeli Jews coming to the UK, to be suspended for a political party for antisemitism, to espouse views that are so evident they attract praise from the most famous of all contemporary holocaust deniers, no, they actually have to stand up and say, "I hate Jews and the holocaust never happened!"

Hey, I was told that not merely antisemitism but Holocaust denial was common on the left. If that is true, it should be easy to produce proof of it. Do so.

You're the expert in denial, that much is obvious.

 

[Craig B]

Stop trying to redefine the English language to wriggle out of the clear implications. The sentence "...a real antisemite doesn't just hate the Jews in Israel.." directly implies that anybody who does only 'hate the Jews in Israel' is not an antisemite. This is basic English comprehension.

I'm having difficulty in believing you mean what you write here, but I will comment on it, because it is a statement that was really made.

Basic English, I can't help you further.

I perceive that you can't help people with that subject; so let me help you. The expression "a real antisemite doesn't just hate the Jews in Israel" means nothing other than this: that a person who is really an antisemite hates all Jews, not "just" those in Israel. To hate Jews in Israel is to be antisemite too, of course.

Here's the statement. Let's apply basic English, which I will try to help with.

a real antisemite doesn't just hate the Jews in Israel, they hate their Jewish neighbour in Golders Green or in Stoke Newington​

Notice, again, the "just". It means: real antisemites hate all Jews, yes in Israel, but also in Golders Green. Does Corbyn hate the Jews of Golders Green? He has not even been accused of this. Therefore he is not a real antisemite, and his attitude to Israel can't be caused by hostility to Jews.

Imagine, during the Apartheid years, That I had been accused of anti-White racism, to explain my aversion to the ruling political forces in S Africa. I would have responded: a real anti-White racist would be hostile to all White people not "just" in South Africa. But you know I am not averse to these other Whites. This shows that I am not hostile to White South Africans either, but to the ideology that currently dominates their country. See. It's really very simple.

In fact, no such accusation of racism was made against me for my hostility to apartheid. However, virtually the only argument advanced in defence of Zionism is that its opponents are motivated by antisemitism; but that is no more true in the antizionist movement than in the anti apartheid movement.

I get it, for a leftist to be antisemitic they need to state it in as many words. It's not enough to call holocaust deniers and Jew haters 'friends', to directly imply antisemitism, to share a stage and associate with holocaust deniers, to speak out against Israeli Jews coming to the UK, to be suspended for a political party for antisemitism, to espouse views that are so evident they attract praise from the most famous of all contemporary holocaust deniers, no, they actually have to stand up and say, "I hate Jews and the holocaust never happened!"

Do you get this? For a rightist antisemite, do they need to do these things? Well, have you noticed that rightists do in fact do them? Makes you think, eh?

You're the expert in denial, that much is obvious.

Thank you. I know whether people deny the Holocaust or not, if that's what you mean

 

[baron]

I'm having difficulty in believing you mean what you write here, but I will comment on it, because it is a statement that was really made.I perceive that you can't help people with that subject; so let me help you. The expression "a real antisemite doesn't just hate the Jews in Israel" means nothing other than this: that a person who is really an antisemite hates all Jews, not "just" those in Israel. To hate Jews in Israel is to be antisemite too, of course.

Here's the statement. Let's apply basic English, which I will try to help with.

a real antisemite doesn't just hate the Jews in Israel, they hate their Jewish neighbour in Golders Green or in Stoke Newington​

Notice, again, the "just". It means: real antisemites hate all Jews, yes in Israel, but also in Golders Green. Does Corbyn hate the Jews of Golders Green? He has not even been accused of this. Therefore he is not a real antisemite, and his attitude to Israel can't be caused by hostility to Jews.

This is Livingstone, not Corbyn.

I don't know how to make this more clear to you. You are taking his own absurd definition of an antisemite and then assuming he's correct in saying he isn't one. One more time:

His definition of an antisemite is someone who hates all Jews, not just those in Israel.

Why does he add 'not just those in Israel'? Because that's the viewpoint he associates with himself and he's making the point that he's not an antisemite. He doesn't say, 'The Israeli government', he says 'Jews in Israel.' But it's OK, he doesn't hate every single Jew in the world so he can't be an antisemite, right kids?

Hey, I hate all blacks in the UK. But I'm not racist because a real racist hates all blacks no matter where they're from.

Are you convinced by my protestations?

Imagine, during the Apartheid years, That I had been accused of anti-White racism, to explain my aversion to the ruling political forces in S Africa. I would have responded: a real anti-White racist would be hostile to all White people not "just" in South Africa. But you know I am not averse to these other Whites. This shows that I am not hostile to White South Africans either, but to the ideology that currently dominates their country. See. It's really very simple.

No, you would use the term 'ruling political forces'. Now that is really very simple.

Do you get this? For a rightist antisemite, do they need to do these things? Well, have you noticed that rightists do in fact do them? Makes you think, eh? Thank you. I know whether people deny the Holocaust or not, if that's what you mean

No, see, I say anybody who does these things is an antisemite. It is you who states that the leftists who do these things are not antisemites. I don't make the same claim for rightists or anybody else, I apply the criteria equally.

 

[trustbutverify]

“Fifteen years ago he certainly was not a Holocaust denier, had he been a Holocaust denier or stated he was, I would have had nothing to do with him. Obviously Holocaust denial is vile and wrong.”

However a post on the DYR website shows Mr Corbyn attending the April 2013 event. It is not clear whether Mr Eisen was also at the commemoration.[/indent] (My bolding) You have said Corbyn shared a platform with Eisen. Do you have details on the circumstances of that platform sharing?

Are you claiming St. Corbyn wasn't aware the 2013 meeting was a DYR event?

 

[Craig B]

Are you claiming St. Corbyn wasn't aware the 2013 meeting was a DYR event?

I don't know what he was aware of, let alone that he has been canonised. I make no claims in that regard.

People ARE claiming things.

They have said Corbyn shared a platform with Eisen. Do you have details on the circumstances of that platform sharing?​

 

[trustbutverify]

He is a "semi denier" don't out and out deny who was responsible for 9/11,but use weasel words like "Manipulate" to imply the "Official Version" is a lie.
I also have to laugh about his calling the US overthrow of the Taliaban "subtle". It was anything but.

St. Corbyn is a master of the words of weasel; it's required coursework for crypto-Jew baiters. His blunder headed brother, on the other hand, isn't quite as skillful.