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Bowling Green Massacre

Meadmaker said:
I hate Trump as much as the next person, but on this one KellyAnne is getting a raw deal.

The Bowling Green Massacre was a failed plot. No, there was no massacre, but there was a planned massacre. Two Iraqi refugees were arrested, convicted, and jailed. It happened in 2011.
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I've read about the terrorism charges, and none of them include acts on US citizens in the US. The charges all relate to things they did overseas, and continued efforts to ship material / support from the US overseas.

Neither was charged with plotting attacks within the United States.
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https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/form...iving-kentucky-sentenced-terrorist-activities
 
Meadmaker said:
Let's try it like this.

I heard her quote before I heard about the uproar regarding a non-existent massacre. I knew exactly what she was referring to. (Although I....errr....got the state wrong. I thought it was in Bowling Green Ohio. That's why I thought it was near Detroit. I remember hearing about it on local news, though.) I knew that I hadn't forgotten about any massacre that had occurred in Kentucky, or even in Ohio. I assumed that she was not giving a precise description of executive actions that had been taken.

In other words, I didn't feel misled. I knew it was a pair of would-be terrorists who were planning to do something bad. After reading the articles today, it turns out they had already done some bad things, and were planning on doing more, and they hadn't quite settled on just exactly which bad things to do.

After reading the uproar, I still don't feel misled. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it was this instead of that and this detail isn't exactly like that and.....whatever. As she said it, I assumed some details would be wrong, and they were.

But, her political opponents by all means ought to seize on it and play it for all it's worth. Congressional investigation maybe? Maybe seven of them? That was the score on Benghazi, I think. Keep repeating it until people believe that KellyAnne Conway went onto news shows and fabricated a story about a massacre in Kentucky, hoping to fool people with a fake news story about an unreported massacre. People in America these days might just be stupid enough to believe it. It wouldn't be the first time.

Because, the alternative would be to believe that she's a fairly ordinary person, who drew parallels between two situations, exaggerated their similarities, downplayed their differences, and did a bit of cherry picking to support her case beyond what a fair reading of all the facts would be. That interpretation would be impossible, right? She must be a lying propagandist trying to mislead stupid people.
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:words:

Holy Cow, just admit you were wrong. It's a lesser offense than your Conway apologetics.
 
Meadmaker said:
Because, the alternative would be to believe that she's a fairly ordinary person, who drew parallels between two situations, exaggerated their similarities, downplayed their differences, and did a bit of cherry picking to support her case beyond what a fair reading of all the facts would be. That interpretation would be impossible, right? She must be a lying propagandist trying to mislead stupid people.
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Most fairly ordinary people don't coin phrases like "alternative facts" to defend demonstrable falsehoods.
 
Meadmaker said:
I knew that I hadn't forgotten about any massacre that had occurred in Kentucky, or even in Ohio. I assumed that she was not giving a precise description of executive actions that had been taken.
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Describing an arrest for sending weapons overseas as a "massacre" goes quite a bit beyond "not giving a false description".

If I described the 1992 IRA arrests as the "New York Massacre", am I merely being imprecise?

In other words, I didn't feel misled. I knew it was a pair of would-be terrorists who were planning to do something bad. After reading the articles today, it turns out they had already done some bad things, and were planning on doing more, and they hadn't quite settled on just exactly which bad things to do.
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And not a single one of those "bad things" involved a massacre in or even anywhere near Bowling Green.



Keep repeating it until people believe that KellyAnne Conway went onto news shows and fabricated a story about a massacre in Kentucky, hoping to fool people with a fake news story about an unreported massacre. People in America these days might just be stupid enough to believe it.
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That's exactly what she did. The same thing with Spicer's lies about the size of the inauguration crowd (and her defending it with the blatant ******** about "alternative facts"), or trying to claim that a Houthi attack on a Saudi frigate off Yemen is Iran attacking the US.

Because, the alternative would be to believe that she's a fairly ordinary person, who drew parallels between two situations, exaggerated their similarities, downplayed their differences, and did a bit of cherry picking to support her case beyond what a fair reading of all the facts would be. That interpretation would be impossible, right? She must be a lying propagandist trying to mislead stupid people.
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The fact that she did all that, has done it before, and will keep doing it is what makes her a lying propagandist trying to mislead stupid people. Especially not if you've previously described utter falsehoods as "alternative facts".

Because, again, there is literally no way to innocently or accidentally call arrests in Bowling Green for sending weapons overseas where not a single person was killed or even injured a *********** "massacre" in Bowling Green.
 
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Beady said:
I thought I was the only person to know about that. How did you find out?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk
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I am a military history buff,and most books on the War of 1812 describe the River Raisin Massacre.
 
Fast Eddie B said:
You're probably right.

It was a Zardoz reference inspired by C_Felix's avatar.


As an aside, I'm being charitable towards KellyAnne Conway. She retracted/corrected quickly, which is the right thing to do.
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Did she also retract the falsehood that the original actual event wasn't covered by the press? Seems kinda important.

Just to refresh:
“Most people don’t know that because it didn’t get covered,” Conway said.
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Yes it was.

ETA: Or maybe she's talking about the massacre not being covered . . . because it only occurred in her *********** head.
 
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A'isha said:
Describing an arrest for sending weapons overseas as a "massacre" goes quite a bit beyond "not giving a false description".
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If you were to describe Guy Fawkes as the person behind the parliament massacre, would you be being imprecise, or would you be lying?

These guys were linked to killing Americans, were convicted of plotting to kill more Americans, and had discussed the possibility, on tape, of killing an awful lot of Americans in America.

One of the problems with the whole dialog is it becomes a question of whether someone did or did not make up something, and she skates on the real point of what was said. There are terrorists in America. We know that. Does it make their policy a good idea? When a couple of terrorists were caught in America, President Obama made temporary changes in immigration policy. Does that make Trump's policies a good idea. Instead, people say, "She made up stuff about a massacre in Bowling Green!"

Well, how does that play. Within the echo chamber, it plays great. Yeah! Yeah! She's a witch! Burn her! Among die-hard Trump supporters (or at least Democrat haters) nothing would matter. But now, how about those "swing voters" whose opinion actually matters and? It starts with Conway saying "Bowling Green Massacre." Then, a bunch of Trump haters say, "Ha. Ha. She's stupid. There was no massacre." Then, a bunch of swing voters say, "Wait a minute...you can't just make up a massacre and pretend there was one.", and they end up reading an article that says that there was no massacre, but there were two guys who killed a few people and hadn't made up their minds about who else to kill.

When those people start reading headlines, they might be inclined to forgive Conway some exaggeration, because it seems like the other side is saying it wasn't really important because they didn't succeed in killing enough people for it to be a "massacre", and besides, the Americans they killed weren't even in America at the time.
 
Meadmaker said:
If you were to describe Guy Fawkes as the person behind the parliament massacre, would you be being imprecise, or would you be lying?

These guys were linked to killing Americans, were convicted of plotting to kill more Americans, and had discussed the possibility, on tape, of killing an awful lot of Americans in America.
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If you were to jail everyone in the USA who talked of killing Americans, the jails would be overflowing with a lot of white folks.
 
Meadmaker said:
When those people start reading headlines, they might be inclined to forgive Conway some exaggeration, because it seems like the other side is saying it wasn't really important because they didn't succeed in killing enough people for it to be a "massacre", and besides, the Americans they killed weren't even in America at the time.
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Massacre is a loaded term, and one which an intelligent person doesn't use impetuously. If she didn't know the facts, she shouldn't have used the term, period. This makes her lazy and stupid as well as mistaken.

Also, she lied when she claimed the original event wasn't covered by the press. Unless you want to claim this is more stupid and lazy.

Or maybe it was all just a calculated, cynical strategy.

ETA: Dumbest of all was how trivially easy it is to research the actual events and fashion a reasonable argument. She was just too lazy to do that.
 
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Resume said:
Did she also retract the falsehood that the original actual event wasn't covered by the press? Seems kinda important.

Just to refresh:

Yes it was.

ETA: Or maybe she's talking about the massacre not being covered . . . because it only occurred in her *********** head.
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Maybe she's referring to Obama's ban not being covered. As far as I can tell nobody knew about it for two years.
 
Meadmaker said:
If you were to describe Guy Fawkes as the person behind the parliament massacre, would you be being imprecise, or would you be lying?
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The Gunpowder Plot happened four hundred years ago in another country. Conway lied about events that happened five years ago in Detroit.

But I asked you first. Am I being merely imprecise if I talk about the IRA's New York Massacre?

There are terrorists in America.
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None of whom carried out or even planned a massacre in Bowling Green.

Instead, people say, "She made up stuff about a massacre in Bowling Green!"
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Only because she, in fact, made up stuff about a massacre in Bowling Green.

Well, how does that play. Within the echo chamber, it plays great. Yeah! Yeah! She's a witch! Burn her! Among die-hard Trump supporters (or at least Democrat haters) nothing would matter. But now, how about those "swing voters" whose opinion actually matters and? It starts with Conway saying "Bowling Green Massacre." Then, a bunch of Trump haters say, "Ha. Ha. She's stupid. There was no massacre." Then, a bunch of swing voters say, "Wait a minute...you can't just make up a massacre and pretend there was one.", and they end up reading an article that says that there was no massacre, but there were two guys who killed a few people and hadn't made up their minds about who else to kill.

When those people start reading headlines, they might be inclined to forgive Conway some exaggeration, because it seems like the other side is saying it wasn't really important because they didn't succeed in killing enough people for it to be a "massacre", and besides, the Americans they killed weren't even in America at the time.
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And this kind of twisting of the actual facts beyond recognition in order to defend the administration's blatant lies is why they get away with it. It's not people hearing Conway lie about a massacre and looking at the news reports for themselves (and no comment about Conway's lie about the existence of those very news reports?), it's them seeing disingenuous defenses of those lies and latching on to them and repeating them.
 
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Ok, the Bowling Green Massacre was a hoax but Muslims have massacred or tried to massacre large numbers of Americans and citizens of other countries. There will be another massacre masterminded by Muslims and it will be anything but a hoax.
 
mgidm86 said:
Maybe she's referring to Obama's ban not being covered. As far as I can tell nobody knew about it for two years.
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Her exact words were " . . . they were the masterminds behind the Bowling Green Massacre and no one knows about it because it didn't get covered."
Before that quote, she mentioned an six month Obama ban on Iraqi refugees that also never happened.

So okay, lets just say she misspoke, confused facts with fantasy, and just plain failed to communicate on every level. Now, explain how you use the word massacre and not realize what's flopping out of your mouth. Jesus Christ, she's not inexperienced, she's the goddamn spokesperson. Speak smart stuff, then.
 
Cainkane1 said:
Ok, the Bowling Green Massacre was a hoax but Muslims have massacred or tried to massacre large numbers of Americans and citizens of other countries. There will be another massacre masterminded by Muslims and it will be anything but a hoax.
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And Americans have massacred large numbers of Americans and citizens of other countries, they will do so again, and it will also be anything but a hoax.
 
Cainkane1 said:
Ok, the Bowling Green Massacre was a hoax but Muslims have massacred or tried to massacre large numbers of Americans and citizens of other countries. There will be another massacre masterminded by Muslims and it will be anything but a hoax.
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So what conclusion are we to draw from this statement? That since there will be an attack somewhere at sometime by some variation of a believer in Islam it is okay to just make up lies to support hating them and build support for The American Jihad against apostate "people of the book"?

Because there will also, someday somewhere be an attack by right wing white supremacists, can I get Nancy Pelosi to go on television and say that the Quebec Mosque Massacre was planned in Ann Coulter's rec room?
 
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