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Hellstorm - WW2 Crimes of the "Good Guys"

I prefer, "laughably vile", rather than "dull", Hans.
 
jimbob said:
I prefer, "laughably vile", rather than "dull", Hans.
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You requested laughably vile - so laughably vile you shall have!


Kztyuc3.jpg
 
Mondial said:
Mass rape of Italian women by Free French forces -
http://uncensoredhistory.blogspot.c...-women-french-colonial-soldiers-moroccan.html
Maybe the makers of Hellstorm - www.hellstormdocumentary.com - can produce a documentary about Allied war crimes against the Italians ?
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From that blogpost:
At the dawn of day chosen for the attack, May 14, 1944, General Juin forwarded to the men of IIa Infantry Division (Jan. Dody) and IVa Mountain Division (Jan. Guillaume) the following proclamation: [...] "For fifty hours you will be absolute masters of what you will find beyond the enemy. No one will punish you for what you do, no one will ask you to account for what you take. "
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And then in the very next paragraph, the very same proclamation is repeated in a slightly differing translation as if it were a different proclamation from the same general Juin.

This is what wiki says about that alleged proclamation:
Recent research has showed this statement was forged after the war by Italian victims' associations and is linked to the perception of the crimes by the Italians rather than an official policy of the French Army.[3]
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For a more balanced view of what took place you might follow that link. You can read French, Mondial? :rolleyes:

Oh, to top it off, that blogpost then offers an image with the caption "The letter by Juin was forwarded to all Goumier units which gave the Moroccans carte blanche". Really? That image says nothing of the kind, and it's written in Italian. Why would a French general commanding troops speaking Arabic and/or Berber write in Italian? Can you tell me that, Mondial?

"Uncensored" in the name of that blogspot apparently means "throwing any falsified crap at you they can find".
 
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I have spent time in the area occupied by these Moroccan troops in Central Italy, and their abuses in the region are well remembered. But I have never heard it suggested this the French high command ordered or encouraged them; the complaint has been that they didn't act swiftly or effectively to prevent or punish these atrocities.

However, this bad reputation doesn't extend to Allied forces in general. The incursion by Allied troops was welcomed, because the main complaint of the local people was against the Germans, who were taking civilian hostages and shooting them in very large numbers. Of all the accusations made against any of the armies engaged in the area, that was the most frequent and the most serious.
 
Further to my last post. Here is a note on German hostage taking.
The published order by the German Commandant, General Kesselring, was that for every German killed by partisans 10 Italians selected at random would be shot. Here is just a flavour of many similar public notices: German 5 Corps, 1 S, No. 391, of 9 August 1944: '(c) If crimes of outstanding violence are committed, especially against German soldiers, an appropriate number of hostages will be hanged. In such cases the whole population of the place will be assembled to witness the executions. After the bodies have been left hanging for 12 hours, the public will be ordered to bury them without ceremony and without the assistance of any priest.' (see pages 316-327 of 'War In Italy 1943-1945 — A Brutal Story' by Richard Lamb (published by John Murray, 1993) for the full text of this order and many other chilling documents).
Most certainly these were not empty threats, mere bluff and bluster. On 12 August 1944 at Sant'Anna di Stazzema, Lucca, 560 civilians were massacred and on 26 September 31 men were publicly hanged at Bassano del Grappa. These are but two out of many such brutal incidents.​
Kesselring had in fact been present in the area, in the very village in which I heard accounts of the behaviour of the German forces on the Gustav Line.
 
Craig B said:
Kesselring had in fact been present in the area, in the very village in which I heard accounts of the behaviour of the German forces on the Gustav Line.
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BTW Kesselring had been sentenced to death in 1947 but he got a lot of support including from the Allied side. Even Churchill stated that the sentence was too harsh. As a result Kesselring has been released from prison in 1952 instead of being executed by a firing squad.

However historical researches published after his death in 1960 show Kesselring was a true and fanatic nazi who has never hesitated to order killings of civilians. And he is also regarded as the responsible for the death of many German civilians because of some decisions he has taken at the end of the war. But he clearly did not take care of the life of his fellow countrymen.
 
Degeneve said:
BTW Kesselring had been sentenced to death in 1947 but he got a lot of support including from the Allied side. Even Churchill stated that the sentence was too harsh. As a result Kesselring has been released from prison in 1952 instead of being executed by a firing squad.
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Kesselring did not maltreat Allied prisoners, and Churchill held Italians, whether civilian or military, in very low esteem.

But the Italian government did not vigorously demand Kesselring's execution in 1947, because the death penalty had already been abolished in Italy in 1944, a fact which is much to the credit of the post-fascist Italian state.
 
I have not seen the movie hellstorm but I have read some holocaust books some of which talked about civilian deaths in allied concentration camps after the war. I heard the number was 1.5m but a scan of the internet turns up 900k. I am guessing the 15m. million figure is accurate. Anyways, they this total did include nazi children etc. I guess on the scale of things its not all that much. I am not too sure about the Russian side, but I did see a movie about the fall of berlin that suggested that they killed any male that happened to be the right age to be a soldier. What else, this is old info but I think the total number of war dead including soldiers is probably as high for the Nazi's as anybody else's. I am sure that at least that many died outside of concentration camps too.

http://www.nytimes.com/books/98/11/22/specials/ambrose-atrocities.html

Oh, this link is a refutation. I read a work that I can't remember the name but was hardly sympathetic to Nazi's that they have several camps along the Rhine river filled with Nazi civilians. The writer claimed that there were too many Nazi's left alive after the war to let go so they starved them. And this makes perfect sense. The write claimed that the prisoners were not only not fed, they also were not given clothing or shelter. Geeze I wish I remembered the name of the book. I read it in the 90's
 
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MinnesotaBrant said:
http://www.nytimes.com/books/98/11/22/specials/ambrose-atrocities.html

Oh, this link is a refutation. I read a work that I can't remember the name but was hardly sympathetic to Nazi's that they have several camps along the Rhine river filled with Nazi civilians. The writer claimed that there were too many Nazi's left alive after the war to let go so they starved them. And this makes perfect sense. The write claimed that the prisoners were not only not fed, they also were not given clothing or shelter. Geeze I wish I remembered the name of the book. I read it in the 90's
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I believe the work you are remembering is James Bacque's book "Other Losses". The conclusions made by Mr. Bacque have been rather thoroughly debunked.
 
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Border Reiver said:
I believe the work you are remembering is James Bacque's book "Other Losses". The conclusions made by Mr. Bacque have been rather thoroughly debunked.
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[disclosure]During the last year of the war in Europe, my grandfather was commandant of a camp for German POWs used for labor on engineering projects. He was transferred out of the ETO in August, 1945.[/disclosure]

And the link is in fact to Stephen Ambrose's thorough debunking of Other Losses. So please explain, if you would, MinnesotaBrant, why you continue to rely on Bacque as a source, when he's been utterly discredited by a large number of respected historians.
 
Mondial said:
At the Nuremberg tribunal and other trials German doctors were condemned for experiments - https://codoh.com/library/document/2369/

And yet before, during and after the war American doctors also conducted experiments -
www.jrbooksonline.com/HTML-docs/A History Of US Secret Human Experimentation.htm

Yet more hypocrisy and double standards from the Allies.
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This is just a crude Holocaust denial site. Also I can't check the reliability of the U.S. Experiment site. Not impressive.
 
Corsair 115 said:
One can find similar things happening on a smaller scale on other fronts.

For example, there's a story from the battle for Ortona in 1943. The Germans lured a group of Canadian soldiers into a building, which the Germans then blew up. The Canadians regarded that as something of a dirty trick, so a few days later Canadian troops did the same thing to some Germans.

Then there's the Pacific, with U.S. troops versus the Japanese. The latter would sometimes feign surrender, only to drop concealed grenades as American soldiers got close. After a few such events, it should not be surprising that U.S. troops became decidedly less interested in accepting the apparent surrender of Japanese soldiers.





I don't offer it as excuse but rather as partial explanation. See the tit-for-tat examples given in the reply above.
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In real life it is a perfect excuse. Once you know your enemy does not follow the rules.................

And, as to the cities, they had the things in them (war work, war communications, war offices, roads that military moved on, tracks that military goods and personnel moved on) and the RoW make that a war crime - for the side using/allowing the military to use them.
 
fuelair said:
In real life it is a perfect excuse. Once you know your enemy does not follow the rules.................

And, as to the cities, they had the things in them (war work, war communications, war offices, roads that military moved on, tracks that military goods and personnel moved on) and the RoW make that a war crime - for the side using/allowing the military to use them.
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I've been carefully distinguishing between attacks on Israeli civilians and soldiers in Palestinian Territories occupied by Israel. To you it's all the same, I suppose, but I find it hard to accept that. I make a distinction between terrorism and attacks on military targets. In any case we've shown time and again that killing civilians was a primary aim of the bombing campaign, so your point is irrelevant.
 
More Germans died after their country surrendered than during the war. What does that tell you about the so called "good guys" ? It tells me that they were nothing but two faced hypocrites and holier than thou types who are guilty of war crimes themselves.
https://wearswar.wordpress.com/2017...survive-genocide-of-the-german-people-part-1/
https://wearswar.wordpress.com/2017...survive-genocide-of-the-german-people-part-2/
The 2 Million-The Rape of German Girls and Women
https://wearswar.wordpress.com/2017/08/22/the-rape-of-german-girls-women-a-brutal-plan-for-genocide/
https://wearswar.wordpress.com/2017...rls--women-a-brutal-plan-for-genocide-part-2/
95% of Babies Born in Berlin 1945 Die on America's Watch
https://wearswar.wordpress.com/2017...l-force-resettlement-of-germans-into-germany/
 
Mondial said:
More Germans died after their country surrendered than during the war.
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Are you sure ?

Mondial said:
What does that tell you about the so called "good guys" ? It tells me that they were nothing but two faced hypocrites and holier than thou types who are guilty of war crimes themselves.
https://wearswar.wordpress.com/2017...survive-genocide-of-the-german-people-part-1/
https://wearswar.wordpress.com/2017...survive-genocide-of-the-german-people-part-2/
The 2 Million-The Rape of German Girls and Women
https://wearswar.wordpress.com/2017/08/22/the-rape-of-german-girls-women-a-brutal-plan-for-genocide/
https://wearswar.wordpress.com/2017...rls--women-a-brutal-plan-for-genocide-part-2/
95% of Babies Born in Berlin 1945 Die on America's Watch
https://wearswar.wordpress.com/2017...l-force-resettlement-of-germans-into-germany/
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I'm not going to click on those links because, no doubt, they lead to some kind of neo-nazi propaganda.
 
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