During World War 2 both sides committed war crimes and atrocities. The propaganda that the Allies were the "good guys" and the Axis were the "bad guys" belongs in a comic book. Everything is not so black and white. The new documentary Hellstorm shows the crimes of the victors - saturation bombing designed to level German cities and kill the maximum number of civilians, mass rape, the largest ethnic cleansing in European history when over 10 million Germans were forcibly expelled from eastern Europe, looting of artwork and monuments etc - www.hellstormdocumentary.com
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Hellstorm - WW2 Crimes of the "Good Guys"
- Thread starter Mondial
- Start date
Crossbow
Seeking Honesty and Sanity
Ummmm, ...
Have you just found out that war is not moral?
Maybe that is news to you, but I can assure you that I (and many, many, many other people) have known for quite some time that war is not moral.
NoahFence
Banned
Hitler was Axis, right?
So yea, they were the bad guys.
So yea, they were the bad guys.
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
There's a reasonable debate to be had about the legitimacy of the Allied bombing campaign(s), but it won't be had in this thread.
Much of the rest can be laid pretty squarely at the feet of Stalin's Soviet Union. Who were never really "the good guys", even if they got lumped in with the rest of the Allies due to the vicissitudes of historical necessity.
The looting of art and monuments I don't really care much about.
Much of the rest can be laid pretty squarely at the feet of Stalin's Soviet Union. Who were never really "the good guys", even if they got lumped in with the rest of the Allies due to the vicissitudes of historical necessity.
The looting of art and monuments I don't really care much about.
Nonsense. This is from your link.
I’m going to assume that most, if not all, the people reading this know that the Holocaust is a made up Jewish lie, but let’s suspend reality for a moment and say that it actually did happen as they claim. Although that would have been horrific, it would still be nothing compared to what the Germans suffered after the war.
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Loss Leader
I would save the receptionist., Moderator
Saturation bombing was sort of a necessity of the technology. Bombs just couldn't be aimed well enough to just drop a couple. Nations had to blanket the area and hope something hit the military target.
As to whether our choice of targets was completely aimed at the military, it was not. Civilian factories believed to be aiding the war effort were considered valid targets. I'm sure some lines were crossed. Dresden was definitely oversaturated. And I think we nuked a hundred thousand Japanese civilians.
Wholesale revisionism, however, doesn't seem to be called for.
Hey, Crossbow, Prestige, Loss Leader! First take a look at what is in the posts you are disagreeing with. No need to attempt to justify carpet boming in the face of anyone who states that the Holocaust is a fraud, but even if true, the Germans suffered worse at Allied hands. Do you even want to argue this point?
Look at this selection of threads started by the OP.
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/search.php?searchid=3481735
The nine most recent ones in in descending order are:
- Hellstorm - WW2 Crimes of the "Good Guys"
- Denying History By Michael Shermer and Alex Grobman - A Critique
- Michael Shermer Tries To Ban Book
- Britain's Use Of Starvation As A Weapon
- Jewish Holocaust Skeptic Resurfaces After 15 Years
- Roosevelt's Rotten Record:Communism, Treachery, Betrayal
- Operation Barbarossa Was A Preventive Attack
- Mass Rape of German Women By Soviet Red Army
- When the US Government Worked With the Mafia
Hmm...
The title of the above youtube should be "are we the baddies?"
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Corsair 115
Penultimate Amazing
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You asserting the above does not make it fact. Rather, it just makes readily apparent your lack of knowledge on the subject.
Loss Leader
I would save the receptionist., Moderator
My favorite WWII crime is when the retreating Germans on the eastern front left all the alcohol untouched in the hope that Russian soldiers would drink it and get too drunk to continue pressing the advance. This misfired badly as the Russians drank and still kept coming, so uninhibited that they stopped caring whether the killed military or civilians, and leading to so many rapes that the numbers defy logic.
Anyway, what was being said about the Americans?
ETA: Yes! My memory is correct.
Anyway, what was being said about the Americans?
ETA: Yes! My memory is correct.
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
Mondial is known to me.
I do kinda want to argue the point that the horrors visited upon the Germans by the Russians should be collectively attributed to all the Allies. In his effort to rehabilitate the Nazis, Mondial take the position that the Allies behaved no better. But when you look at the record, in fact it was mainly Russia that behaved no better. What happened in Eastern Europe was not the fault of the US or the UK. There's reason that Germans kept trying to escape to West Germany, not from West Germany.
If Mondial's argument were that the Soviets were no better than the Nazis, and that it's a shame they didn't get the same treatment, I would agree. I just don't agree with the argument that therefore the British and the Americans were no better than the Nazis.
Corsair 115
Penultimate Amazing
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I think perhaps some of that can be attributed to 'you reap what you sow'. That is, if your enemy fights in a merciless way, you'll tend to fight that way in response. The Germans were certainly willing to fight the Russians with little quarter given, so it ought not to be too surprising if the Russians responded by fighting back and giving little quarter in reply.
The Big Dog
Unregistered
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Couple of holocaust deniers made a whiny movie about how their Nazi heroes got curb stomped? Yeah, there is a line from Archer that I should share here.
gypsyjackson
Master Poster
Mitchell and Webb for those who haven't seen their take on the ethics of WW2:
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Loss Leader
I would save the receptionist., Moderator
I'm not sure that the best case against America even lies in the European theater. It was in the pacific where we did our morally worst. Of course, Japan wasn't slouching when it came to war crimes, either.
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
Good point. The Bataan Death March will forever stain American honor.
Meadmaker
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I haven't watched the documentary, but, did you have a point?
Sometimes these things get into a bunch of "who was worse" debates, but can you even compare that sort of thing? I mean, who was worse? Adolf Hitler, Winston Churchill, Jodi Arias? All were responsible for killing of innocent people, so how exactly do we figure out who was worse?
I think motive plays a role in a lot of people's assessment of guilt in such situations. Adolf Hitler was trying to conquer territory and enslave or kill the current inhabitants, eventually freeing that land to become German Lebensraum. It doesn't seem too noble. Churchill was trying to overthrow the guy who was trying to enslave the Poles and exterminate the Jews, and to do so with the smallest possible number of deaths of his own people, even if that meant killing people whose only crime was supporting the German military, or living next to a lot of people who did. It doesn't make Dresden into a humanitarian act, but somehow it seems less despicable than building an extermination camp.
The point appears to be holocaust denial and pro Nazi publicity. A sympathetic viewer of the film writes
... As well done as the film is, it is certainly not for the faint-hearted, but nonetheless it is still imperative for every person of European descent to see this for it gives us a glimpse of what could happen if the Jews have their way and do successfully implement their New World Order.
The "point" is Hitler's point. This is antisemitic Nazi propaganda. It has nothing to do with the iniquities of Allied area bombing or Soviet misdeeds on German soil. It is about "persons of European descent" averting the supposed "Jewish" New World Order.Border Reiver
Philosopher
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Most defintitely. There is nothing comparable to the "Commissar Order" for the forces fighting the Western powers, and the deliberate mistreatment of Soviet PWs from Barbarossa on did nothing but create hatred for the Germans by the Soviets. Combine this with the "tit for tat" way the Soviets then waged war against the Germans and their Allies, its hard to see how the behaviour of all the armies in the East could have been anything but bad.