Hellstorm - WW2 Crimes of the "Good Guys"

[fuelair]

Thanks, hadn't heard of that one.

More specifically as I well remember is that it is actually: "90 percent of SF is crud/crap - but, then everything is 90% crud/crap!"

 

[fuelair]

During WW2 the US armed forces set up an imitation of a typical German home in Utah. Houses were created using the same or similar material as those found in Germany. They were then subject to aerial attack with incendiaries (fire bombs) the objective being to find out the best way to set German homes on fire and kill the maximum number of occupants - https://memory.loc.gov/master/pnp/habshaer/ut/ut0500/ut0568/data/ut0568data.pdf Therefore the US Air Force was deliberately targeting civilians when at the Nuremberg Tribunal the American prosecution themselves stated that this was a war crime - https://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=11053 If there is a Part 2 of Hellstorm they should include this info - www.hellstormdocumentary.com

It is not a war crime if any home areas have modifications to hide portions of them (as that makes them look hidden) or if the home areas are within the error range known to exist given tech of the time or close to the areas under materials production, transportation, communication, shelter for military functions.

 

[fuelair]

I have spent time in the area occupied by these Moroccan troops in Central Italy, and their abuses in the region are well remembered. But I have never heard it suggested this the French high command ordered or encouraged them; the complaint has been that they didn't act swiftly or effectively to prevent or punish these atrocities.

However, this bad reputation doesn't extend to Allied forces in general. The incursion by Allied troops was welcomed, because the main complaint of the local people was against the Germans, who were taking civilian hostages and shooting them in very large numbers. Of all the accusations made against any of the armies engaged in the area, that was the most frequent and the most serious.

For a fictional version of this, see Two Women

 

[Rincewind]

Mondial, you do realize that in common with all Armed forces, US military planners prepare contingency plans for any possible situation?
During the early part of the twentieth Century, the US developed a series of colored plans:

Black: Early WWI – war against Germany (in case of a French collapse and the Germans in the Caribbean).
Grey: 1941. Two versions; Central America/Caribbean and Azores.
Brown: dealing with an uprising in the Philippines.
Tan: Intervention in Cuba
Red: 1930 – vs the UK – different Empire countries used shades of Red. Oh – Canada had a 1921 counterpart!
Orange: various dates from 1911 - vs Japan
Red-Orange: to counter war against both Japan and UK
Yellow: vs China
Gold: vs France and French Caribbean possessions
Green: vs Mexico
Indigo: 1941 – occupation of Iceland
Purple: invasion of a South American Country.
Violet: version of Purple in Latin America.
White: Domestic uprising in the USA
Blue: Defensive plans and preparations to take place in times of peace.

As you can see - virtually all of them never happened...

 

[Border Reiver]

Mondial, you do realize that in common with all Armed forces, US military planners prepare contingency plans for any possible situation?
During the early part of the twentieth Century, the US developed a series of colored plans:

Black: Early WWI – war against Germany (in case of a French collapse and the Germans in the Caribbean).
Grey: 1941. Two versions; Central America/Caribbean and Azores.
Brown: dealing with an uprising in the Philippines.
Tan: Intervention in Cuba
Red: 1930 – vs the UK – different Empire countries used shades of Red. Oh – Canada had a 1921 counterpart!
Orange: various dates from 1911 - vs Japan
Red-Orange: to counter war against both Japan and UK
Yellow: vs China
Gold: vs France and French Caribbean possessions
Green: vs Mexico
Indigo: 1941 – occupation of Iceland
Purple: invasion of a South American Country.
Violet: version of Purple in Latin America.
White: Domestic uprising in the USA
Blue: Defensive plans and preparations to take place in times of peace.

As you can see - virtually all of them never happened...

It's interesting to note that the planners for both Defence Scheme No.1 (Canada) and War Plan Red (US) reached the same conclusions - speed would be vital, and the need would be to secure the ports of Halifax and Vancouver to prevent British reinforcement, and the rail hubs at Montreal, and Winnipeg to cripple internal resupply for the Canadians.

The Canadian scheme was to strike fast at Portland, Seattle and Spokane in the Pacific theatre, Fargo in the Prairies, and Albany in the North East, striking as far south as possible. Once the US started driving the invaders back, the idea would be to carry out a fighting retreat to the border, destroying rail lines and bridges all the way to slow the advance. The intent was to give time for the British to send an expeditionary force and then end up at a negotiating table - with the population and production disparity between Canada and the US outright victory by Canada was not seen as a realistic outcome.

Having looked at the plans, in the context of the equipment and troops available at the time, I'd give Defence Scheme No. 1 about a 50/50 chance of being able to pull its aim off (hold until reinforced), provided there was a short "flash to bang" and Canada was able to get troops called up faster than the US. The US having 10x the population base definitely helps it along with the greater amount of its industry well south of the fighting zone. With 1920s and even early to mid 30s equipment, the Canadian plan is feasible - once larger transport aircraft allow for the movement of troops and supplies, then its not a question of "can the US win?", its a case of "the regular army held the border for 30 minutes, giving us time to hide supplies for the resistance...."

 

[dudalb]

Mondial, you do realize that in common with all Armed forces, US military planners prepare contingency plans for any possible situation?
During the early part of the twentieth Century, the US developed a series of colored plans:

Black: Early WWI – war against Germany (in case of a French collapse and the Germans in the Caribbean).
Grey: 1941. Two versions; Central America/Caribbean and Azores.
Brown: dealing with an uprising in the Philippines.
Tan: Intervention in Cuba
Red: 1930 – vs the UK – different Empire countries used shades of Red. Oh – Canada had a 1921 counterpart!
Orange: various dates from 1911 - vs Japan
Red-Orange: to counter war against both Japan and UK
Yellow: vs China
Gold: vs France and French Caribbean possessions
Green: vs Mexico
Indigo: 1941 – occupation of Iceland
Purple: invasion of a South American Country.
Violet: version of Purple in Latin America.
White: Domestic uprising in the USA
Blue: Defensive plans and preparations to take place in times of peace.

As you can see - virtually all of them never happened...

Indigo actually happened in a way;in 1941 US Marines. replaced UK Troops ias the garrison in Iceland because the British Troops were so badly needed elsewhere. In Early 1942, the Marines were replaced by US Army Troops because the Marines ..many of whom had experience in Jungle warfare from the "Banana Wars" ..were badly needed in the Pacific.

 

[Planigale]

It's interesting to note that the planners for both Defence Scheme No.1 (Canada) and War Plan Red (US) reached the same conclusions - speed would be vital, and the need would be to secure the ports of Halifax and Vancouver to prevent British reinforcement, and the rail hubs at Montreal, and Winnipeg to cripple internal resupply for the Canadians.

The Canadian scheme was to strike fast at Portland, Seattle and Spokane in the Pacific theatre, Fargo in the Prairies, and Albany in the North East, striking as far south as possible. Once the US started driving the invaders back, the idea would be to carry out a fighting retreat to the border, destroying rail lines and bridges all the way to slow the advance. The intent was to give time for the British to send an expeditionary force and then end up at a negotiating table - with the population and production disparity between Canada and the US outright victory by Canada was not seen as a realistic outcome.

Having looked at the plans, in the context of the equipment and troops available at the time, I'd give Defence Scheme No. 1 about a 50/50 chance of being able to pull its aim off (hold until reinforced), provided there was a short "flash to bang" and Canada was able to get troops called up faster than the US. The US having 10x the population base definitely helps it along with the greater amount of its industry well south of the fighting zone. With 1920s and even early to mid 30s equipment, the Canadian plan is feasible - once larger transport aircraft allow for the movement of troops and supplies, then its not a question of "can the US win?", its a case of "the regular army held the border for 30 minutes, giving us time to hide supplies for the resistance...."

Canadian Bacon anyone?

 

[Rincewind]

Indigo actually happened in a way;in 1941 US Marines. replaced UK Troops ias the garrison in Iceland because the British Troops were so badly needed elsewhere. In Early 1942, the Marines were replaced by US Army Troops because the Marines ..many of whom had experience in Jungle warfare from the "Banana Wars" ..were badly needed in the Pacific.

It's a good job that Red wasn't implemented.

Because the RAF wouldn't have been able to beat off the Luftwaffe attack on Pearl Harbor!

 

[dudalb]

Canadian Bacon anyone?

Which proved that Michael Moore should stick to documentaries............


Re US Invading Canadaeople in the US Forget exacly who Candiands are supposed to be standing guard against in "O Canada"..........