Brexit: Now What? Part II

[Darat]

I think he's really trying to send a strong and clear message. He must be very disquieted indeed by the current situation.

Bah - an elitist expert - we've no need for them!

 

[Andy_Ross]

The UK cannot expect to hold on to "bits" of its membership after leaving the EU, Theresa May has said.

Often people talk in terms as if somehow we are leaving the EU, but we still want to kind of keep bits of membership of the EU. We are leaving. We are coming out. We are not going to be a member of the EU any longer.

"So the question is what is the right relationship for the UK to have with the European Union when we are outside. We will be able to have control of our borders, control of our laws. This is what people were voting for on 23 June.
But of course we still want the best possible deal for us,"

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38546820

So, Hard Brexit it is then

 

[Craig B]

The UK cannot expect to hold on to "bits" of its membership after leaving the EU, Theresa May has said.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38546820

So, Hard Brexit it is then

And an absolute confirmation, from the highest possible level, that people were voting to keep foreigners out, regardless of any other considerations or consequences.

I really like this bit.

We will be able to have control of our borders, control of our laws ...
But of course we still want the best possible deal for us, companies to be able to trade, UK companies to be able to trade in and operate within the European Union and also European companies to be able to trade with the UK and operate within the UK.​

I've decided to go out to the pub tonight and get completely pissed. But I've also decided I'm not going to have a hangover tomorrow, so that's all right then.

 

[Garrison]

And an absolute confirmation, from the highest possible level, that people were voting to keep foreigners out, regardless of any other considerations or consequences.

Which will be something of a shock to a great many of those who voted leave on the understanding we would have trading terms as good if not better than those we have now.

I really like this bit.

We will be able to have control of our borders, control of our laws ...
But of course we still want the best possible deal for us, companies to be able to trade, UK companies to be able to trade in and operate within the European Union and also European companies to be able to trade with the UK and operate within the UK.​

I've decided to go out to the pub tonight and get completely pissed. But I've also decided I'm not going to have a hangover tomorrow, so that's all right then.

And this nonsense coming from a PM who campaigned for Remain. Lying then or lying now I wonder?

 

[The Don]

Well UK firms will be able to trade and operate within the EU (and vice verse), just not on the terms and with the ease they currently do.

IMO Theresa was always pro-leave but took a political decision to support remain (a reverse-Boris if you will). Unlike for Boris its paid off handsomely for Theresa ans IMO no matter how awful Brexit is, she'll wrap herself in the Union Jack, blame everything on on the EU being horrid and manage to cultivate an image of having saved England (yes, England - she couldn't give a stuff about Scotland, Wales or Norn Iron)

 

[Garrison]

Well UK firms will be able to trade and operate within the EU (and vice verse), just not on the terms and with the ease they currently do.

IMO Theresa was always pro-leave but took a political decision to support remain (a reverse-Boris if you will). Unlike for Boris its paid off handsomely for Theresa ans IMO no matter how awful Brexit is, she'll wrap herself in the Union Jack, blame everything on on the EU being horrid and manage to cultivate an image of having saved England (yes, England - she couldn't give a stuff about Scotland, Wales or Norn Iron)

Speaking of Boris:

Sir Alan, who has described expanding Israeli settlements as a "stain on the face of the globe", was seen as more of a problem than Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson - who was "basically good", according to Mr Masot in a transcript of the conversation.
"He just doesn't care. He is an idiot but has become minister of foreign affairs without any responsibilities.

I suspect our EU friends have about the same opinion.

 

[Mikemcc]

I think he's really trying to send a strong and clear message. He must be very disquieted indeed by the current situation.

Doesn't matter. It's still his personal opinion. He has been honourable in showing that he can't work under the conditions. Fair does to the man. It does not make his views 'correct'. Everything with regards to Brexit is still in the realms of 'tea leaf prediction'. The banks have already had to admit that the predictions leading up to the referendum proved to be based on models that were flawed, the predicted dire results didn't happen (except the exchange rate chaos, but we all know that it open to blatant manipulation)

I'm amazed that there is so much fascination in the 'failed promises' and 'lack of plan' arguments. Both sides either lied, were 'economical with the truth', or confounded by the results. It was always obvious to me that the idea of directing all of the EU payments to the NHS was a none starter (IIRC the famous bus slogan doesn't even really promise that, it was due to poorly phrased comments from the politicians involved), we still need to pay agricultural subsidies, fund research, etc.

Neither side was going to plan anything significant prior to the referendum result, such a move would be totally wasteful. Hence I'm surprised at the furore that there should have been such planning. It's purely down to political points scoring - 'oh look the Brexiteers are inept...'. No they're not, they are planning now and looking at a lot of options, some of which may be controversial, and ministers will disagree with some options, especially those that cross office boundaries. Resolving issues like this is why we have a cabinet based government. Disagreements aren't necessarily a sign of a dis-functional government, provided those disagreements get resolved properly at the cabinet meetings. So far, so good in that respect.

The idea that migration will stop or the NHS will crash because it can't get staff from abroad is likewise a fallacy. Post Brexit people will still be able to migrate pretty much the same way (EU migration will just involve a work visa). The problem as I saw it was never about migration per se, but about uncontrolled migration. That we had little or no idea who comes in from the EU, for what purpose, how long they might stay, whether they have any employment opportunities, etc is frankly crazy.

 

[Garrison]

Doesn't matter. It's still his personal opinion. He has been honourable in showing that he can't work under the conditions. Fair does to the man. It does not make his views 'correct'. Everything with regards to Brexit is still in the realms of 'tea leaf prediction'. The banks have already had to admit that the predictions leading up to the referendum proved to be based on models that were flawed, the predicted dire results didn't happen (except the exchange rate chaos, but we all know that it open to blatant manipulation)

Hasn't happened yet. And has been prevented in no small part by promising big fat tax cuts and subsidies to industry, but that's okay not like we have a huge debt or public services desperately short of money is it?

I'm amazed that there is so much fascination in the 'failed promises' and 'lack of plan' arguments. Both sides either lied, were 'economical with the truth', or confounded by the results. It was always obvious to me that the idea of directing all of the EU payments to the NHS was a none starter (IIRC the famous bus slogan doesn't even really promise that, it was due to poorly phrased comments from the politicians involved)

You better have a word with David Davies then. The Brexit minister is under the impression that £350 million pound a week was a promise, not one he intends to honour mind you. And saying both sides lied is a copout, the It doesn't excuse Theresa May simply ditching the promises the Leave campaign made.

Neither side was going to plan anything significant prior to the referendum result, such a move would be totally wasteful.

Again, the Leave side made some very clear statements regarding the terms on which we would leave, now they've reneged on them. Theresa May has also tried to claim the referendum result as some sort of mandate for wider changes.

Hence I'm surprised at the furore that there should have been such planning. It's purely down to political points scoring - 'oh look the Brexiteers are inept...'. No they're not, they are planning now and looking at a lot of options, some of which may be controversial, and ministers will disagree with some options, especially those that cross office boundaries.

Please present any evidence of such planning taking place. Teresa May has done everything in her power to avoid offering up any details, and again the ideas they have put forward break yet more of the promises made during the campaign, but hey the other side told some lies as well so that makes it totally okay right?

Resolving issues like this is why we have a cabinet based government. Disagreements aren't necessarily a sign of a dis-functional government, provided those disagreements get resolved properly at the cabinet meetings. So far, so good in that respect.

You have a very odd notion of 'so good'.

The idea that migration will stop or the NHS will crash because it can't get staff from abroad is likewise a fallacy. Post Brexit people will still be able to migrate pretty much the same way (EU migration will just involve a work visa).

Really? Because according to May and co, and Ceptimus, the British people voted for an end to EU immigration period,

The problem as I saw it was never about migration per se, but about uncontrolled migration. That we had little or no idea who comes in from the EU, for what purpose, how long they might stay, whether they have any employment opportunities, etc is frankly crazy.

And the problem as you saw it never really existed.

 

[Craig B]

Speaking of Boris:



I suspect our EU friends have about the same opinion.

Except for the "basically good" bit.

 

[Mikemcc]

Hasn't happened yet. And has been prevented in no small part by promising big fat tax cuts and subsidies to industry, but that's okay not like we have a huge debt or public services desperately short of money is it?

Most seem to realise that we will still be a good bet, Nissan was an exception and clearly an effective bribe from the Government, as if that hasn't happened over the last 20 years under successive governments, hence the sweetheart deals for Google, Facebook, Amazon, Starbucks, etc. IMO, they should all be scrapped and charged corporation tax on their takings in the UK. They will still want to trade here. Perhaps we should also put in investigation teams to look at things like driver hours for the delivery guys, because some of the companies are simply taking the piss.

You better have a word with David Davies then. The Brexit minister is under the impression that £350 million pound a week was a promise, not one he intends to honour mind you. And saying both sides lied is a copout, the It doesn't excuse Theresa May simply ditching the promises the Leave campaign made.

where have I declared blind obedience? I do believe I said that it was always going to be unachievable. It still didn't stop me from voting to leave.

Again, the Leave side made some very clear statements regarding the terms on which we would leave, now they've reneged on them.

Again, I'm not worried about that, If there are any that you think I should be worried about, maybe you will expand on that. In my case I was always under the impression that it would need to be a 'hard' Brexit, that 's the only way to leave the migration requirement. that we would need to negotiate terms for visas, trade, banking, etc was always a foregone conclusion. Folks that thought otherwise were deluded. Sorry that I may have taken a deeper appreciation of the effects than many voters.

Theresa May has also tried to claim the referendum result as some sort of mandate for wider changes.

I'm shocked that a new leader might have thought of her own; shocked I tell you.

Please present any evidence of such planning taking place. Teresa May has done everything in her power to avoid offering up any details, and again the ideas they have put forward break yet more of the promises made during the campaign, but hey the other side told some lies as well so that makes it totally okay right?

I take it you haven't been reading the papers about the rush to try and produce a plan prior to April 2017, I thought that was public knowledge. Not offering up details is also normal practice, both commercially and politically. I'm sorry that they are not inviting you to the meetings to hear your views on the matter.

Really? Because according to May and co, and Ceptimus, the British people voted for an end to EU immigration period,

And you have a citation for that little gem do you? Who's Ceptimus by the way?

And the problem as you saw it never really existed.

Oh really? So no-one ever abused the system of open migration?

 

[Garrison]

where have I declared blind obedience? I do believe I said that it was always going to be unachievable. It still didn't stop me from voting to leave.

And that right there renders any rational discussion pointless.

 

[Garrison]

where have I declared blind obedience? I do believe I said that it was always going to be unachievable. It still didn't stop me from voting to leave.

So in summary another Xenophobe so deathly afraid of the foreign hordes they are willing to gamble with the future of the British economy.

 

[Mikemcc]

And that right there renders any rational discussion pointless.

So in summary another Xenophobe so deathly afraid of the foreign hordes they are willing to gamble with the future of the British economy.

Really, is that the best reaction you can come up with. That I recognized that a politician was lying, but still voted for Brexit rends you speechless and marks me as a xenophobe, a claim for which, you have no evidence. That's poor.

 

[Craig B]

Really, is that the best reaction you can come up with. That I recognized that a politician was lying, but still voted for Brexit rends you speechless and marks me as a xenophobe, a claim for which, you have no evidence. That's poor.

You are therefore free to deny being a xenophobe, and to tell us your motive for voting to leave the EU.

 

[CapelDodger]

And an absolute confirmation, from the highest possible level, that people were voting to keep foreigners out, regardless of any other considerations or consequences.

A confirmation that that is May's opinion, and of nothing else.

 

[Garrison]

Really, is that the best reaction you can come up with. That I recognized that a politician was lying, but still voted for Brexit rends you speechless and marks me as a xenophobe, a claim for which, you have no evidence. That's poor.

Certainly poor that you can't remember your own words:

In my case I was always under the impression that it would need to be a 'hard' Brexit, that 's the only way to leave the migration requirement.

 

[CapelDodger]

And this nonsense coming from a PM who campaigned for Remain. Lying then or lying now I wonder?

Conflicted, then relieved, I suspect.

My take on May is that she is wedded to a vision of Britishness, and it's the vision one might expect in the daughter of a High Church Anglican vicar in a very comfortable living, and a High Tory mother. A very Thames Valley sort of vision.

What I think we have is a Prime Minister whose horizons are peculiarly limited, in every respect.

 

[CapelDodger]

So in summary another Xenophobe so deathly afraid of the foreign hordes they are willing to gamble with the future of the British economy.

This is not about gambling, it's about the willing sacrifice of prosperity in defence of Britishness if that's what it takes. Sovereignty and that. Dig For Britain. Whatever the cost it's worth it to a patriot, and if you're not a patriot are you really worth anything?

Just cutting to the chase there, of course. Somebody has to.

 

[Garrison]

Conflicted, then relieved, I suspect.

My take on May is that she is wedded to a vision of Britishness, and it's the vision one might expect in the daughter of a High Church Anglican vicar in a very comfortable living, and a High Tory mother. A very Thames Valley sort of vision.

What I think we have is a Prime Minister whose horizons are peculiarly limited, in every respect.

I think that's it really, its a yearning for a way things were that either never existed or was only ever open to narrow segment of society.

 

[CapelDodger]

Speaking of Boris

We do need to talk about Boris.

I suspect our EU friends have about the same opinion.

It's the throwaway nature of the comment - "He's an idiot, of course" - that says it all.

This guy and Farage currently project the world's view of Britain. I have never felt more Welsh than I do now.