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Castro has passed on

Not necessarily. The US took secondary action against countries and companies that traded with Cuba, to make them reluctant to do so.

I know of cases where the US dissuaded some petroleum companies from work in Cuba. I know of no cases where US pressure interfered with Cuban sale of sugar anywhere else. Do you?

It is pointless to understate US hostility to Cuba, or its effects.

It's pointless to overstate it as well. But that doesn't tell us which we're doing.

But apart from that, the Cuban economy was damaged by the excessive centralism and authoritarianism practiced by Castro.

On that we definitely agree.
 
I know of cases where the US dissuaded some petroleum companies from work in Cuba. I know of no cases where US pressure interfered with Cuban sale of sugar anywhere else. Do you?



It's pointless to overstate it as well. But that doesn't tell us which we're doing.



On that we definitely agree.
And I notice you're not in the least concerned with whether I have overstated or understated the damage due to that effect.
 
And I notice you're not in the least concerned with whether I have overstated or understated the damage due to that effect.

I am concerned, I just doubt we'll reach a consensus, so don't see much point in spending a whole lot of effort on it.
 
It would be kind of strange to have large numbers of well-trained doctors sitting around doing nothing while people would have no access to health care. Also, from the people I know who have visited Cuba - which is more than a few - all of them state that it does indeed have free universal healthcare.



I was mainly responding to the notion in this thread that the US embargo wasn't so bad, which fails to account for how much Cuba's economy was focused on sugar exports to the US. I'm making no argument pro or contra Castro.

So? Governments do strange and counter productive things all the time. Communist auticracies especially. Look at Venezuela.

Besides, the doctors weren't sitting around doing nothing, remember? They were providing basic medical care in other countries.

About that free health care and great doctors:
As for the free health care, patients have to bring their own medicine, their own bedsheets, and even their own iodine to the hospital. Most of these items are available only on the illegal black market, moreover, and must be paid for in hard currency—and sometimes they’re not available at all. Cuba has sent so many doctors abroad—especially to Venezuela, in exchange for oil—that the island is now facing a personnel shortage. “I don’t want to say there are no doctors left,” says an American man who married a Cuban woman and has been back dozens of times, “but the island is now almost empty. I saw a banner once, hanging from somebody’s balcony, that said, DO I NEED TO GO TO VENEZUELA FOR MY HEADACHE?”​

Bold mine. Caps in the original.
 
About that free health care and great doctors:
As for the free health care, patients have to bring their own medicine, their own bedsheets, and even their own iodine to the hospital. Most of these items are available only on the illegal black market, moreover, and must be paid for in hard currency—and sometimes they’re not available at all. Cuba has sent so many doctors abroad—especially to Venezuela, in exchange for oil—that the island is now facing a personnel shortage. “I don’t want to say there are no doctors left,” says an American man who married a Cuban woman and has been back dozens of times, “but the island is now almost empty. I saw a banner once, hanging from somebody’s balcony, that said, DO I NEED TO GO TO VENEZUELA FOR MY HEADACHE?”​

Bold mine. Caps in the original.
Here's the outfit that publishes that material. I'll look around and try to get a balanced view by comparing various sources. But thanks for your kind help.

ETA Michael J Totten, the author of your passage on Cuba, is nothing if not ingenious.
That’s where you come in. Fund my next trip—to Cuba this fall—so I can produce a brand-new batch of first-person narrative dispatches. You can follow along as I publish them on my blog. And at the end of the project, I’ll publish all my material as a dispatch pack—including full-color photographs—that you can read on your iPad, your Kindle, or any other tablet or reading device. And if you don’t have a tablet or reading device, you can just read them on your computer. Generous backers will receive public thank-yous from me, on my blog and in the dispatch pack when it’s published.

I’m not asking you for donations. I’m asking you to participate and will give you something back in return. Let’s go to Cuba.​
So he's given you something back, if you were generous enough to contribute to his appeal.
 
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Here's the outfit that publishes that material. I'll look around and try to get a balanced view by comparing various sources. But thanks for your kind help.

You're welcome. Here's another report, from Panam Post, an American news site focusing on Latin American topics: https://panampost.com/belen-marty/2...tals-that-castro-doesnt-want-tourists-to-see/

This report is from a mainstream Spanish newspaper ABC: http://www.abc.es/internacional/20130317/abci-falso-mito-sanidad-cubana-201303161813.html

It's in Spanish, though.

ETA Michael J Totten, the author of your passage on Cuba, is nothing if not ingenious.

[...]

So he's given you something back, if you were generous enough to contribute to his appeal.

It's pretty neat, isn't it? I envy you the experience of discovering this kind of audience-supported content for the first time.

I've been consuming and participating in audience-funded art, entertainment, and reporting (though not Totten's work) for several years now. I no longer feel that sense of novelty and excitement when a new example appears. In 2016, it doesn't really seem very ingenious to me anymore.

But I'm not sure why you think this is relevant.
 
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Well, ya' can get rid of Fidel Castro, but ya' can't change Fidel's policy of Castration. In Cuba, tomorrow will be the same as yesterday: the same as it ever was.
 
I have a friend and a former co-worker who is Cuban, he came here as a little boy with his mother but his father stayed on the island. His name is Carlos, he's a water treatment technician and is married to a woman from Argentina -- they're both American citizens now -- and about three summers ago they went on vacation to, first Cuba to see his father and other relatives, and then on to Argentina to see his wife's parents.

He's not very political but he said within hours of his arrival he knew he had made a major mistake in spending vacation time in Cuba. His father lived in a small town near Havana, a suburb I guess, and he said it was one of the most deadly boring places he could have ever imagined. Nothing to do. No shopping malls, no movies, no clubs, no restaurants, no nothing. And no one had any money least of all his father.

He said the first morning he and his wife slept late but were awakened by people coming to his father's small house. They seemed excited and as his father hurriedly prepared to leave, he asked Carlos (my friend) did he want to come along. Come along where? To the market, his father explained, they have bread today!

:(

His father had no air conditioning just fans, which helped (it was very warm), but every evening (and sometimes during the day) the power would go off for an hour or two. His father's one extravagance was a satellite dish -- illegal but everyone in his neighborhood seemed to have them (and you can't exactly hide them) -- so he could watch TV from stations in Miami. His father was a devoted fan of the Miami Marlins baseball team and every evening he would join his father and his uncles and they would watch the games. Except he said frequently the picture would break up and the audio would be distorted by a low-pitched grinding sound. When he asked what was the problem, his father and his uncles all laughed. "Oh that's nothing," his father said. "It'll stop." It was the Cuban authorities jamming the signal.

After two days he told his wife, "I can't take this, let's go." His wife was horrified. She said we can't leave, your father will be heartbroken and insulted. Carlos suggested they claim her mother had been in a car accident. His wife said, "We're staying!"

He said eventually he took his father aside and urged him to come to the United States. His father wouldn't hear of it. He said, "I'm Cuban, why would I want to leave Cuba?" He said, "But dad, life here is no good." His father said, "There are problems yes, but that's true everywhere, isn't it?"

Carlos loved Buenos Aires, by the way, especially the shopping district. ;)
 
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One measure of the health care system is infant mortality rate. Cuba's is considerably better than the US.

Yeah, but mainly by relying on different statistical methods - a good portion of US infant deaths would be classified as spontaneous abortions in Cuba, and by a significantly more nefarious approach of inducing abortions of babies with genetic defects. One measure of the health care system is also how honest it is. Cuba's is considerably worse than the US on that measure, and this obviously has quite massive implications for all other measures as well.

McHrozni
 
I think these comments are silly. The question of Castro's effect on Cuba and the world deserves more serious consideration. By some measures Cuba under Castro scored quite well, on others very badly. Health was good, availability of goods in shops was poor. Democratic rights and freedoms were restricted or absent. But the regime was nothing like as murderous as Cambodia under Pol Pot.

It was (is?) more murderous than that of Pinochet, but unlike Pinochet, Castro a) didn't step down voluntarily and b) didn't leave his country's economy in ruins.

Yet, Pinochet is the one who is (rightly) remembered as a nasty bastard.
 
Yet, Pinochet is the one who is (rightly) remembered as a nasty bastard.

Pinochet was a nasty bastard, Castro was the nasty bastard. Pinochet is remembered as the nasty bastard, which is unfair.

McHrozni
 
It was (is?) more murderous than that of Pinochet

Do you have evidence? As far as I know there are about 60 political prisoners in Cuba, which is much less than Pinochet. Heck, it's less than the US. To be fair, you did say murderous, but still...evidence?
 
You're welcome. Here's another report, from Panam Post, an American news site focusing on Latin American topics: https://panampost.com/belen-marty/2...tals-that-castro-doesnt-want-tourists-to-see/

This report is from a mainstream Spanish newspaper ABC: http://www.abc.es/internacional/20130317/abci-falso-mito-sanidad-cubana-201303161813.html

It's in Spanish, though.



It's pretty neat, isn't it? I envy you the experience of discovering this kind of audience-supported content for the first time.

I've been consuming and participating in audience-funded art, entertainment, and reporting (though not Totten's work) for several years now. I no longer feel that sense of novelty and excitement when a new example appears. In 2016, it doesn't really seem very ingenious to me anymore.

But I'm not sure why you think this is relevant.
Art and entertainment are matters of taste, and audience support is a reasonable way of funding them. News reports is a different sort of thing. Very much a different thing. But perhaps you have been blinded to this by the impression of novelty and excitement with which you originally greeted the genre.
 
It was (is?) more murderous than that of Pinochet, but unlike Pinochet, Castro a) didn't step down voluntarily and b) didn't leave his country's economy in ruins.

Yet, Pinochet is the one who is (rightly) remembered as a nasty bastard.
What have I said to suggest Castro was not a nasty bastard? Only that he was not a murderer in the scale of Pol Pot. You can still be pretty nasty without going that far. As I have stated, I expect a few interesting revelations in the coming period.
 
A libertarian who complains about the lack of privatized healtcare. Do you have anything which isn't so obviously biased?
Biased, moi? Panam Post?
Trump Is the Only World Leader to Recognize Fidel Castro’s Failed, Violent Dictatorship
BY: PANAM POST STAFF - NOV 27, 2016, 3:43 PM​
 

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