Erdogan's purge in Turkey

[AlaskaBushPilot]

Hyperbole much ?

Not hyperbole. I'm paying attention. This is yet again the leftist tactic of emotional attack, calling you crazy or extreme for a very accurate description of the war process in Iraq, in Libya, in Syria, in Iran, and now underway in Russia.

It's been incredible to watch it work over and over again, but it's worked so well the establishment just keeps using it.

Then again, if you deny the fact that the Russian economy is controlled by a handful of oligarchs who managed to seize Russia's assets at a knock-down price and that being friends with Putin is a key element of keeping those assets, and keeping yourself out of prison (or worse) then you're denying facts.

You are not making any coherent argument. You just keep repeating the same "Putin Bad! Putin Bad!" tactic I am pointing out.

It isn't your place. It is the Russian people's place. But no matter, they're just like Iraqis or Libyans, or Syrians, or whomever: subhumans to you. So it is just fine for you to be this arrogant and presumptuous.

The Russian people do not consider you their savior from Putin, the role you have assigned to yourself. Instead they consider all this bellicosity out of the USA as a grave threat to them.

That's why this program of reducing an entire country, culture, and society down to one cartoon demon is so tragically misguided. It has been one disaster after another. Trillions of dollars spent. Thousands upon thousands of dead US, tens of thousands with irreparable war damage. The millions of dead non-americans, the refugees, the poisoned environment - all of it so horrendous.

There has been no plan for the day after in Iraq, in Libya, in Syria, nor will there be for Russia because there is no need for it. The only problem is this one demon, so after you get rid of him there is nothing left to do. Nobody even asks what the day after plan is. Why would you need one? You remove the problem, and there is nothing more to do...

So just keep repeating the same mistake, and as always the anti-war person is the stupidest one in the room.

 

[The Don]

So much straw

Not hyperbole. I'm paying attention. This is yet again the leftist tactic of emotional attack, calling you crazy or extreme for a very accurate description of the war process in Iraq, in Libya, in Syria, in Iran, and now underway in Russia.

It's been incredible to watch it work over and over again, but it's worked so well the establishment just keeps using it.

You are not making any coherent argument. You just keep repeating the same "Putin Bad! Putin Bad!" tactic I am pointing out.

There's a big difference between just saying "Putin Bad! Putin Bad!" and pointing why unilaterally engaging in a process of appeasement (as Trump is doing) with a corrupt regime isn't a good move.

It isn't your place. It is the Russian people's place. But no matter, they're just like Iraqis or Libyans, or Syrians, or whomever: subhumans to you. So it is just fine for you to be this arrogant and presumptuous.

The Russian people do not consider you their savior from Putin, the role you have assigned to yourself. Instead they consider all this bellicosity out of the USA as a grave threat to them.

I'm not sure where any of the above comes from apart from your febrile imagination. I haven't said anything about saving the Russian people from Putin and I certainly haven't referred to anyone as being subhuman.

What I have tried to do is point out why unilateral appeasement of a corrupt regime which has repeatedly demonstrated its expansionist aspirations isn't a good idea.

It's enlightening that many of the same right-wing politicians and media outlets who were vociferous in their criticism of Obama for not doing enough in Ukraine are now perfectly content with Trump's proposal of appeasement.

That's why this program of reducing an entire country, culture, and society down to one cartoon demon is so tragically misguided. It has been one disaster after another. Trillions of dollars spent. Thousands upon thousands of dead US, tens of thousands with irreparable war damage. The millions of dead non-americans, the refugees, the poisoned environment - all of it so horrendous.

There has been no plan for the day after in Iraq, in Libya, in Syria, nor will there be for Russia because there is no need for it. The only problem is this one demon, so after you get rid of him there is nothing left to do. Nobody even asks what the day after plan is. Why would you need one? You remove the problem, and there is nothing more to do...

So just keep repeating the same mistake, and as always the anti-war person is the stupidest one in the room.

I'm puzzled how you can lay the blame for the lack of planning for the post-war situations in Iraq and Libya at a group of people who were vehemently against military action, repeatedly pointed out that there was no post-war plan before, during and after the conflict and who were completely excluded from the planning and execution of those wars.

You seem to be under the delusion that I, or someone, is advocating the removal of Putin by force. You realise that there is a range of options between the binary positions of "removal by force" and "appeasement" ?

 

[CapelDodger]

You need a reasonable and trustworthy partner for that. I submit that Putin is not reasonable and particularly not trustworthy.

I submit that Putin is reasonable, and that he's dependable, which is what you really want. Nothing imperils a career trajectory like trust.

I'm expecting a new era in Turko-Russian relations to open up very soon.

 

[Darth Rotor]

I'm expecting a new era in Turko-Russian relations to open up very soon.

If Putin can talk Erdogan into leaving Assad in power, yes. If not, much less likely.

 

[FenerFan]

I submit that Putin is reasonable, and that he's dependable, which is what you really want. Nothing imperils a career trajectory like trust.

I'm expecting a new era in Turko-Russian relations to open up very soon.

We will see. Erdoğan did "express regret" about shooting down the Russian fighter in a recent message to Putin. Russian tourists and businesses usually spend a lot of money here, but a very large part of that dried up after Putin told .his people not to come after the shoot down. Also, there is a big pipeline deal that was put on hold. However, as DR said, the Syria situation remains sticky.
Also, Turkey and Israel are finally making up after years of bad relations because of the Mavi Marmara raid. Israel is going to pay $20 million to the families of the Turks who were killed. For his part, Erdoğan will help secure the return from Hamas of the bodies of two Israeli soldiers.

 

[CapelDodger]

If Putin can talk Erdogan into leaving Assad in power, yes. If not, much less likely.

An accomodation along those lines is qute feasible, I think, and in both parties' interests. Which would be bad news for the Kurds, I fear; Erdogan can depend on Putin to throw them under the bus if and when it suits him.

 

[CapelDodger]

We will see. Erdoğan did "express regret" about shooting down the Russian fighter in a recent message to Putin. Russian tourists and businesses usually spend a lot of money here, but a very large part of that dried up after Putin told .his people not to come after the shoot down. Also, there is a big pipeline deal that was put on hold. However, as DR said, the Syria situation remains sticky.

Syria also presents an opportunity for Turkey to stamp its authority on the Levant while squeezing out Saudi influence. Add a deal with Iran to divide Iraq into zones of interest - Mosul to Turkey, the South to Iran, and a wasteland in Anbar why not - and Erdogan's reign starts with a bang.

Also, Turkey and Israel are finally making up after years of bad relations because of the Mavi Marmara raid. Israel is going to pay $20 million to the families of the Turks who were killed. For his part, Erdoğan will help secure the return from Hamas of the bodies of two Israeli soldiers.

Clearing the desk before the major project, perhaps?

 

[AlaskaBushPilot]

So much straw



There's a big difference between just saying "Putin Bad! Putin Bad!" and pointing why unilaterally engaging in a process of appeasement (as Trump is doing) with a corrupt regime isn't a good move.

Rolling your eyes is not an argument. Nor is adopting anti-Hitler rhetoric of "appeasement", lol. As if Trump was Neville Chamberlain.

So you've now added "Appeaser" to put down anyone who wishes to be on friendly terms with Russia instead of pushing conflict with them.

I haven't said anything about saving the Russian people from Putin and I certainly haven't referred to anyone as being subhuman.

My eyes are working just fine, seeing you be the judge over Putin, instead of his people. Moreover, that Putin does not represent his people, but is some "Oligarch".

Putin was put in specifically because of his non-oligarch background, after the drunk and oligarchic Yeltsin passed into history.

... unilateral appeasement...

appeasement.

... "appeasement" ?

Repeating that anti-Hilter word half a dozen times in a single post is a demonstration you have no argument, just a label.

Appeaser. oooooooooh. Boy, that is a really bad thing. Trump bad.

Being "not an appeaser" - is that someone who jumps up and down screeching how horrible Russia is, doing nothing, like you are? The more of that you do, the less respect anyone can have for American screeching.

And what are we to "do" if not screeching beyond sanctions the EU is already imposing on Russia? Not to mention the installation of missile systems ringing Russia which, during the Cuban missile crisis was treated extremely seriously by Kennedy just for one little island on our southern border.

If economic sanctions and encirclement with missile systems isn't enough, then what is? That's why the Russian people, the people and not this cartoon Putin character - they're convinced the US/NATO means them great harm.

Crimea has an absolute right to join Russia. Talk about hyperbole in framing that as Russian "aggression". Everywhere possible you copy the establishment's bellicose labeling.

Controlling language - Chomsky was big on that and you can see the establishment doing this with Russia exactly as it has done with all the other foreign policy disasters in the last several administrations.

Edit: It is great irony that Turkey is now cooling off relations with Russia. and their people are, right or wrong, extremely suspicions of the US role in the coup attempt.

 

[The Don]

Rolling your eyes is not an argument. Nor is adopting anti-Hitler rhetoric of "appeasement", lol. As if Trump was Neville Chamberlain.

So you've now added "Appeaser" to put down anyone who wishes to be on friendly terms with Russia instead of pushing conflict with them.

There is a huge difference between wanting to be on friendly terms with a country and recognising their illegal annexation of part of another country and tipping them the wink that if they were to pursue a similar approach in the Baltic states then the U.S. would not be minded to fulfill its NATO treaty obligations.

Obama (and others) have done the former in working with Russia in Syria. Trump OTOH is proposing the latter and I consider that to be appeasement.

My eyes are working just fine, seeing you be the judge over Putin, instead of his people. Moreover, that Putin does not represent his people, but is some "Oligarch".

Putin was put in specifically because of his non-oligarch background, after the drunk and oligarchic Yeltsin passed into history.

There's plenty of evidence of Putin's personal wealth and his relationship with the oligarchs that own most of Russia's industry and natural resources.

Here's an article from a left-leaning newspaper that summarises the position nicely and contains good links to the underlying information that supports the positions it takes:

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...-putin-russia-oligarch-british-left-speak-out

If Putin was supposed to be the solution to Russia's oligarch issue - it hasn't worked out as planned.

Repeating that anti-Hilter word half a dozen times in a single post is a demonstration you have no argument, just a label.

Appeaser. oooooooooh. Boy, that is a really bad thing. Trump bad.

Well I call it the way it looks.

Being "not an appeaser" - is that someone who jumps up and down screeching how horrible Russia is, doing nothing, like you are? The more of that you do, the less respect anyone can have for American screeching.

No, a non-appeaser works with another country towards mutually desirable goals without recognising that country's illegal territorial gains - like Obama has been doing.

And what are we to "do" if not screeching beyond sanctions the EU is already imposing on Russia? Not to mention the installation of missile systems ringing Russia which, during the Cuban missile crisis was treated extremely seriously by Kennedy just for one little island on our southern border.

If economic sanctions and encirclement with missile systems isn't enough, then what is? That's why the Russian people, the people and not this cartoon Putin character - they're convinced the US/NATO means them great harm.

Crimea has an absolute right to join Russia. Talk about hyperbole in framing that as Russian "aggression". Everywhere possible you copy the establishment's bellicose labeling.

Controlling language - Chomsky was big on that and you can see the establishment doing this with Russia exactly as it has done with all the other foreign policy disasters in the last several administrations.

Edit: It is great irony that Turkey is now cooling off relations with Russia. and their people are, right or wrong, extremely suspicions of the US role in the coup attempt.

It's really interesting how the narrative towards Russia has changed. A little while ago, Obama wasn't doing enough to curb the Russian bear, now apparently he is a bully who is constraining Russia from taking her rightful place on the world stage.

 

[quadraginta]

<snip>

It's really interesting how the narrative towards Russia has changed. A little while ago, Obama wasn't doing enough to curb the Russian bear, now apparently he is a bully who is constraining Russia from taking her rightful place on the world stage.

The common theme is: no matter what Obama does, doesn't do, or is said to have done ...

... it's wrong.

 

[Dr.Sid]

Meanwhile in Turkey ..

Turkish TV Station Thinks GTA IV Cheats Are Secret Codes from the Coup:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AfTzwtOX87o

 

[Klimax]

Meanwhile in Turkey ..

Turkish TV Station Thinks GTA IV Cheats Are Secret Codes from the Coup:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AfTzwtOX87o

On the other hand, they would provide very good cover. Doom, Quake and GTA codes as basis of obfuscation...

 

[FenerFan]

Meanwhile in Turkey ..

Turkish TV Station Thinks GTA IV Cheats Are Secret Codes from the Coup:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AfTzwtOX87o

I had not seen that one, but it doesn't suprise me. The print and TV news is filled with stories how Gülenists are everywhere and how much they want to usurp the will of the people. Also, lots of replays of the various helicopter and bomb attacks conducted by the those involved in the coup attempt, and a teary-eyed Erdogan speaking about and attending funerals of civilians who were killed. ALL of the news coming from Turlish sources is controlled by Erdoğan and his party. Free press, which was barely hanging on before the coup, is all but silenced. Things are bad enough now with the continuing purge, but it will be much worse once Erdoğan crams the changes to the constitution down everyone's throat. That is the point, IMO, of all of this. Erdoğan is going to give himself, as President, massive power and control. And his supporters will give it willingly with smiles on their faces. After all, enemies are everywhere and the West, especially America, either directly support them or give them a wink and a nod.
(End of rant)

 

[Sideroxylon]

I had not seen that one, but it doesn't suprise me. The print and TV news is filled with stories how Gülenists are everywhere and how much they want to usurp the will of the people. Also, lots of replays of the various helicopter and bomb attacks conducted by the those involved in the coup attempt, and a teary-eyed Erdogan speaking about and attending funerals of civilians who were killed. ALL of the news coming from Turlish sources is controlled by Erdoğan and his party. Free press, which was barely hanging on before the coup, is all but silenced. Things are bad enough now with the continuing purge, but it will be much worse once Erdoğan crams the changes to the constitution down everyone's throat. That is the point, IMO, of all of this. Erdoğan is going to give himself, as President, massive power and control. And his supporters will give it willingly with smiles on their faces. After all, enemies are everywhere and the West, especially America, either directly support them or give them a wink and a nod.
(End of rant)

While all those who marched in their hundreds in 2007 through the capital to protest the place about to turn into Iran because incoming president Abdullah Gul's wife wore a headscarf *gasp* are silent.

Reckon they could power a fair bit of the region with the rotational energy being produced at Attaturk's mauseleum right now. Must be plenty going there to pray to their secular god and place a rose with silent tears at his grave.

 

[Sideroxylon]

Nm

 

[applecorped]

The common theme is: no matter what Obama does, doesn't do, or is said to have done ...

... it's wrong.

sometimes it is

 

[AlaskaBushPilot]

I think we better have a Russian policy thread or something. It is relevant here only insofar as Russia pertains to Turkey.

Right now, Turkey has changed its position vis-à-vis both the US and Russia. Namely, distancing itself from the US and establishing more friendly relations with Russia. This transition towards Russia started long before the coup, but now things are accelerating.

It is a popular impression that the US was involved in the coup:


http://www.businessinsider.com/turkey-us-coup-anti-american-sentiment-2016-8

 

[FenerFan]

That's a very insightful article, especially this part:

The Turkish public's reflex to sympathize with conspiracy theories "goes back almost a century, to the end of World War I, when the West carved up the defeated Ottoman Empire," Tim Arango, a Middle East reporter at the New York Times, wrote on Wednesday.

"A Western plan to divide what became modern Turkey failed after Mustafa Kemal Ataturk, the country’s founder, waged war against the occupiers. But the effort forever ingrained in the Turkish psyche a fear of Western conspiracies."

As stupid as that story about GTA codes was, it has an audience ready and willing to buy it. For most of Erdoğan's strongest supporters, it's already set in stone that the U.S. directed he whole thing. Whether or not Erdoğan and other top leaders truly believe this, I don't know, but it's probably just useful rhetoric. Regardless, this narrative will be pounded into the ground by the media.
All of it just serves to hide the idea that the coup was actually attempted by old school Kemalists in the military, real hardcore nationalists. Although you could see lots of Turkish flags in the squares the last few weeks, the vast majority of the people holding them would run back into a burning home to grab their Koran rather than their flag.
Erdoğan meant it when he said the coup attempt was a gift from God. He is playing this thing very well. He can set his supporters against an old nemesis, crank up anti-US sentiment, and appear as the shining savior of democracy.

But when Gen. Joseph F. Dunford Jr., the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, met Monday with officials in the Turkish capital he heard far more measured tones.

The top Turkish military officer and the prime minister, Binali Yildirim, both told him they want the two countries to continue their close relationship, particularly in efforts to defeat the Islamic State, General Dunford said.

The officials did not raise a single question with General Dunford about whether the United States had played a role in the coup attempt. Their silence highlights a common tactic among Turkish officials to denounce the United States to their own public while reassuring American officials privately that they are committed to a strategic partnership.

From this NY Times article:

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/02/world/europe/turkey-erdogan.html

 

[McHrozni]

I had not seen that one, but it doesn't suprise me. The print and TV news is filled with stories how Gülenists are everywhere and how much they want to usurp the will of the people. Also, lots of replays of the various helicopter and bomb attacks conducted by the those involved in the coup attempt, and a teary-eyed Erdogan speaking about and attending funerals of civilians who were killed. ALL of the news coming from Turlish sources is controlled by Erdoğan and his party. Free press, which was barely hanging on before the coup, is all but silenced. Things are bad enough now with the continuing purge, but it will be much worse once Erdoğan crams the changes to the constitution down everyone's throat. That is the point, IMO, of all of this. Erdoğan is going to give himself, as President, massive power and control. And his supporters will give it willingly with smiles on their faces. After all, enemies are everywhere and the West, especially America, either directly support them or give them a wink and a nod.
(End of rant)

There are very strong parallels between Turkey in 2016 and Venezuela in 2002. There too was something closely resembling a coup attempt in Venezuela in 2002, provoked by the ruling party and abused for a coup of their own. Of course the next parallel is Germany in 1932.

We all know how that turned out. Edrogan's supporters are gullable idiots for the most part.

McHrozni

 

[McHrozni]

From this NY Times article:

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/02/world/europe/turkey-erdogan.html

A Trumpesque way of addressing this would be to tell them in no uncertain terms that one more mention of US orchestrating a coup will be grounds for actually orchestrating a coup - one that won't fail. If they don't take the hint you do it, and wipe the AKP out of history.

It buys you a generation or so of peace and quiet. No, I'm not advocating it.

McHrozni