Erdogan's purge in Turkey

AlaskaBushPilot said:
Pretty horrific purge.

Turkey is another example of an ally against Russia that does not make sense. NATO is just so unworkable, way past its original purpose and more interested in starting wars than preventing them.
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And Putin is any better?????


But keep drinking the Trump Kool Aid....
 
dudalb said:
And Putin is any better?????
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Perfect example of having no argument. Sentence one, show the outrage, emotional attacking.

50,000 so far and counting with Erdogan. Putin fired his entire Baltic Fleet command, he didn't jail them, interrogate, torture, or kill. He just fired them. The high end estimates are 50. That is a thousand times less people and not even remotely the same thing.

The last great purge before that was firing some mayors, same thing there just fired them. Bribes and corruption mostly.

But keep drinking the Trump Kool Aid....
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I never heard a word out of Trump about Russia until recently and had 20 years of experience, following Glasnost and Perestroika, doing these exchanges, teaching at YSU - decades before Trump had anything to say about Russia.

Just more personal attacking here. I have no brain, I just drank this imaginary liquid.

That isn't an argument. You don't seem capable of making one and that is why Trump comes off so much better.

Just go right ahead: explain how working with Russia on friendly terms is somehow this huge outrage or epic folly. State your case. You think I am afraid of an actual argument?

My position has nothing to do with Trump. It has to do with my experience and study there. Knowing these people, seeing their history and the really reckless policy of being at war by proxy with them in multiple places. Syria makes absolutely no sense until you factor in how Saudi Arabia and other Sunni gulf oil states are corrupting our politicians with money. To support ISIS, Al Qaeda, all these variant Sunni Wahhabi Jihadists.

So we take on Russia for the sake of ISIS. You bet Putin is way better than these people. And it isn't working with the devil to partner with them. The Russians are good people. They have very positive attitudes about the USA or had them. Enough Russophobia has to take its toll on that.
 
CapelDodger said:
The religious element appears in retrospect, when the inheritance of said accidental empire was in dispute. The Koranic story doesn't hold water for a moment. Islam does not represent some great break from the past; it's a continuation of existing beliefs, formalised and turned to the purposes of the new State.
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Isn't that pretty much the history of most large scale religions?
 
AlaskaBushPilot said:
Just go right ahead: explain how working with Russia on friendly terms is somehow this huge outrage or epic folly. State your case. You think I am afraid of an actual argument?
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Working with Russia on friendly terms would definitely be a boon but then again it depends on what the Russian regime is like at the time and the terms that the Russian regime demands for that friendly co-operation.

If the Russian regime is like the current one, a borderline totalitarian regime under the control of a group of kleptocrats - headed by the chief kleptocrat - then the U.S. needs to be very careful about the degree of legitimacy that working alongside Russia gives that regime. The U.S. has showed that it is prepared to work alongside Russia in Syria in an attempt to quash a shared enemy, ISIS but has come under criticism for giving the green light to Russian and Syrian reprisals against Assad's other domestic opponents.

Likewise it depends on the terms that Russia demands. If the price for Russian co-operation is that the U.S. and the West rubber stamp Russia's annexation of Crimea and look the other way as they attempt to annex Ukraine, Georgia and other former Soviet states then that price may be too high.

IMO Donald J Trump has come under attack for two main reasons. He has seemingly approved Russian annexation of the Crimea whilst at the same time apparently sending clear messages the the U.S. would not protect their NATO allies. So some (many ?) this seems to be a green light to the Russians that they are free to annex whomsoever they please.

Donald J Trump's man-crush on Putin also validates the Putin regime's views on gays, minorities and dissidents.

....and all of this unilaterally so that there is no reciprocal benefit for the US
 
The Don said:
If the Russian regime is like the current one, a borderline totalitarian regime under the control of a group of kleptocrats - headed by the chief kleptocrat - then the U.S. needs to be very careful about the degree of legitimacy that working alongside Russia gives that regime.
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The arrogance of Americans is truly astounding, as if they constitute a "source" of legitimacy which they can confer to other governments by cooperating with them. Maybe the Russian government should be very careful about the degree of legitimacy that working alongside the US gives the US regime.
 
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caveman1917 said:
The arrogance of Americans is truly astounding, as if they constitute a "source" of legitimacy which they can confer to other governments by cooperating with them. Maybe the Russian government should be very careful about the degree of legitimacy that working alongside the US gives the US regime.
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Well the views you're attributing to the U.S. were my views so I think it's unfair to accuse the U.S. of arrogance; but yes, I think that U.S. support confers legitimacy - which is why newly established countries are so eager to get international support, and in particular U.S. support.
 
caveman1917 said:
The arrogance of Americans is truly astounding, as if they constitute a "source" of legitimacy which they can confer to other governments by cooperating with them. Maybe the Russian government should be very careful about the degree of legitimacy that working alongside the US gives the US regime.
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You are sure very upset about USA, considering it is so unimportant backwater fifth-world pseudo-country that no one recognizes.
 
caveman1917 said:
The arrogance of Americans is truly astounding, as if they constitute a "source" of legitimacy which they can confer to other governments by cooperating with them. Maybe the Russian government should be very careful about the degree of legitimacy that working alongside the US gives the US regime.
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You sound like you wish for a Trump presidency, which would negate much of the conferred legitimacy that worries you so.
 
Elind said:
You sound like you wish for a Trump presidency, which would negate much of the conferred legitimacy that worries you so.
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Or maybe he is one those "I want Trump to win because with Trump we will have fascism,and the sooner we have Fascism, the sooner we will have The Revolution" types.
 
The Don said:
If the Russian regime is like the current one, a borderline totalitarian regime under the control of a group of kleptocrats - headed by the chief Keptocrat -
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There's the formula. Demonize, reduce the entire people and their culture down to one more "worst thing since Hitler" bogey man.

Please do call it the "regime" too, we have to keep our labels on point. Russia has watched us use this formula in one country after another - Iraq, Libya, Syria - and see us beating the drums against Putin now too.

They see NATO gulping up their border states and putting in missile systems. They claim for Iran, which is absurd. So this is the right strategy, to provoke Russia? They are no danger to NATO.

What Russian demands? Like adherence to our missile agreements with them? That sounds pretty reasonable to me.

Syria - Jesus. The gulf states are US allies and are funding ISIS. The US is funding ISIS/Al Qaeda variants because they want to overthrow Assad. It is some bizarre strategy of on the one hand keeping ISIS and its affiliates strong enough to topple Assad, but not strong enough to run an entire multi-country caliphate. It is not "working with Russia" unless we mean this cynical, contradictory way.

Overthrowing Assad accomplishes the eviction of Russia from one of only three bases outside their border. So no, not working with Russia in a reasonable and trustworthy way.
 
AlaskaBushPilot said:
There's the formula. Demonize, reduce the entire people and their culture down to one more "worst thing since Hitler" bogey man.

Please do call it the "regime" too, we have to keep our labels on point. Russia has watched us use this formula in one country after another - Iraq, Libya, Syria - and see us beating the drums against Putin now too.

They see NATO gulping up their border states and putting in missile systems. They claim for Iran, which is absurd. So this is the right strategy, to provoke Russia? They are no danger to NATO.

What Russian demands? Like adherence to our missile agreements with them? That sounds pretty reasonable to me.

Syria - Jesus. The gulf states are US allies and are funding ISIS. The US is funding ISIS/Al Qaeda variants because they want to overthrow Assad. It is some bizarre strategy of on the one hand keeping ISIS and its affiliates strong enough to topple Assad, but not strong enough to run an entire multi-country caliphate. It is not "working with Russia" unless we mean this cynical, contradictory way.

Overthrowing Assad accomplishes the eviction of Russia from one of only three bases outside their border. So no, not working with Russia in a reasonable and trustworthy way.
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You need a reasonable and trustworthy partner for that. I submit that Putin is not reasonable and particularly not trustworthy.
And I love the way you concede Russia's right to bully and take over neighboring states.
No wonder you are drinking the Trump Kool Aid big time.
I find it amusing that so many Anti Establishment types are embracing a dictorail thug like Putin.
 
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AlaskaBushPilot said:
There's the formula. Demonize, reduce the entire people and their culture down to one more "worst thing since Hitler" bogey man.
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Hyperbole much ?

Then again, if you deny the fact that the Russian economy is controlled by a handful of oligarchs who managed to seize Russia's assets at a knock-down price and that being friends with Putin is a key element of keeping those assets, and keeping yourself out of prison (or worse) then you're denying facts.
 
The Don said:
Well the views you're attributing to the U.S. were my views so I think it's unfair to accuse the U.S. of arrogance
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I'm not accusing the US of anything, that unicorn only exists in your head. I'm "accusing" - or rather observing - that people who identify themselves with that particular unicorn (ie "Americans") tend to display the arrogance expressed in your statement.

but yes, I think that U.S. support confers legitimacy - which is why newly established countries are so eager to get international support
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I don't think you can consider Russia a "newly established country".

and in particular U.S. support.
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By which "support" means "not bombing"? One can see why people might want to be "legitimized".
 
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caveman1917 said:
By which "support" means "not bombing"? One can see why people might want to be "legitimized".
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There are many ways in which the US supports countries without bombing them but you're so tied up in your anti-US hyperbole that you refuse to see it.

Back to my original point. Trump has been naive at best by supporting Putin and tipping him the wink that under a Trump presidency, Russia could annex the Baltic states and expect no comeback from the U.S.
 
The Don said:
There are many ways in which the US supports countries without bombing them but you're so tied up in your anti-US hyperbole that you refuse to see it.
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The US government saying something to the effect of "the government of X has no legitimacy" is a good predictor for X getting bombed or something similar, but you're so tied up in your nationalism that you refuse to see it.
 
The Don said:
Back to my original point. Trump has been naive at best by supporting Putin and tipping him the wink that under a Trump presidency, Russia could annex the Baltic states and expect no comeback from the U.S.
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The other 26 NATO nations might have something to say, but then again, if they can't be bothered, you could ask why should the US be bothered? Flashback to the Former Yugoslavia, 1991, and the ensuing train wreck.
 
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