What will happen at the Democratic Convention?

[Skeptic Ginger]

You think voting your conscience is "nonsense?" How sad for you.

I think Stein is no more representative of Sanders' ideals than Trump actually represents anything people are voting for when they vote for him.

It's voting for an image, not a person who would actually move the needle toward said ideals. How sad that people think such an important vote should be for an image and not based on who would actually do the best job or who is most qualified.

 

[acbytesla]

People said that about the civil rights movement. Why did they have to protest, and make a fuss, and cause a disturbance? Why couldn't they just be reasonable and accept compromise? Like separate but equal, what a wonderful compromise that was. How unreasonable and childish to object.

Sorry, but that is a misinterpretation and revisionist history. And it's a false analogy.


"Separate but equal" was the Supreme Court's compromise not the act of civil rights leaders
It was a sham and an abomination. .

This election is important. The choice (even though there are all these other parties) is binary. We have one candidate that will advance your goals (not nearly enough I grant you) and another who will retard them. Does it realty make sense to undermine and sabotage the ally? Go after Hillary all you want through the primaries and on November 10th. Protest, hold her feet to the fire, keep her accountable for following through. That is responsible activism.

There is a time to protest and raise hell and there are times to compromise. Protesting now is self defeating.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

People said that about the civil rights movement. Why did they have to protest, and make a fuss, and cause a disturbance? Why couldn't they just be reasonable and accept compromise? Like separate but equal, what a wonderful compromise that was. How unreasonable and childish to object.

Consider a continuum where the Vietnam war protests and the Civil Rights movement were on one end, large enough to have an effect, compared to someone voting for Nader or Stein on the other end, when that vote might lead to more harm than good.

Just because one has ideals doesn't mean everything you do for said ideals is productive. If your action actually gets you further from your goal, how is that helpful?

 

[TragicMonkey]

Consider a continuum where the Vietnam war protests and the Civil Rights movement were on one end, large enough to have an effect, compared to someone voting for Nader or Stein on the other end, when that vote might lead to more harm than good.

Just because one has ideals doesn't mean everything you do for said ideals is productive. If your action actually gets you further from your goal, how is that helpful?

But you can only judge that by hindsight. At the moment you're protesting you have no way of knowing whether your movement will ultimately be effective or not.

 

[acbytesla]

"Tone policing" or "concern trolling," depending on the level of partisanship.

Unfortunately the SJW crowd is much enamoured of both terms and use them to mean, largely, "how dare you tell me I'm getting my panties in a bunch over nothing! J'accuse!" so if you employ them expect to be called a liberal labeler who labels too liberally in response.

Maybe the term I'm looking for doesn't exist. But I've seen this disingenuous tactic used and I can see how it can be effective. That is why it is essential to point it out.

 

[Fudbucker]

Why do people protest? They want to change things. The status quo, in other words. Take the suffragettes for example. If they protest enough, maybe people take women voting seriously, and the status quo gets disrupted. If the protest fails, then things merely revert back to the old status quo. There really is no drawback to protesting. It's a binary thing: you protest and things change for the better or they don't and you're back where you started from.

That's not the case with this election. A successful protest by the Bernie folks means a great leftward lurch by one of the major parties, which I agree is a good thing. But if the protest fails, there are two possible outcomes: we revert to the status quo of a mildly progressive Democratic party OR Trump becomes president and decades worth of progressive changes are wiped out, at the very least.

To make an analogy, it's like if BLM knew that a failed bid to change the status quo by protesting meant not only a possible return to the old status quo, but a nightmarish possibility that slavery would become legal again. If such an outcome were a real possibility of a failed attempt to change things, you would have to think long and hard about protesting, and the smart thing to do might be to wait until conditions are such that you're not plunged into a nightmare if the protest movement fails.

I think the smart thing to do in the case of Sanders voters is to accept that it's too risky right now to make any protests against the Democratic party and it's candidate. Maybe if the GOP had nominated a moderate, the risk might be worth it (although even a moderate GOP president would be a disaster for the Supreme Court), but with Trump, the risk vs reward equation is too heavy on the "risk" side.

 

[wareyin]

But you can only judge that by hindsight. At the moment you're protesting you have no way of knowing whether your movement will ultimately be effective or not.

Just to be clear, are you saying that you have no way of knowing whether Stein could win or not?

If not a pie-in-the-sky shot like a Stein presidency, in what way is trying to disrupt the DNC going to be effective for progressive causes?

 

[TragicMonkey]

Just to be clear, are you saying that you have no way of knowing whether Stein could win or not?

If not a pie-in-the-sky shot like a Stein presidency, in what way is trying to disrupt the DNC going to be effective for progressive causes?

No, I wasn't talking about specific current events. I was objecting to the generalizations that protests are useless (unless you can see the future and only do the protests that work out effectively) and that protestors should shut up and compromise to whatever the person objecting to the protests wants because that's the "mature" thing to do.

 

[Fudbucker]

Just to be clear, are you saying that you have no way of knowing whether Stein could win or not?

If not a pie-in-the-sky shot like a Stein presidency, in what way is trying to disrupt the DNC going to be effective for progressive causes?

The best scenario for Bernie protesters is not a Stein presidency. Stein and Johnson are just vehicles to show dissatisfaction with the party. Neither of them can possibly win. The goal of Bernie protesters would be to peel away enough support from Clinton to ensure she narrowly wins, but makes clear to the Democratic party that its base is much more progressive than the party realizes.

I'm assuming no sane Bernie-or-Bust person wants an actual Trump presidency.

 

[acbytesla]

No, I wasn't talking about specific current events. I was objecting to the generalizations that protests are useless (unless you can see the future and only do the protests that work out effectively) and that protestors should shut up and compromise to whatever the person objecting to the protests wants because that's the "mature" thing to do.

I never said that protests were useless only if they have immediate tangible results, but protests that are counterproductive are useless.

 

[quadraginta]

<snip>

I wonder which would make him look worse. Refusing to debate like a little bitch. Or getting destroyed in them.

Chickening out.

After what has already transpired it's difficult to imagine anything short of violent felonies against little white girls which would make him look worse.

Especially where his supporters are concerned. And even that might not be sufficient. Assuming they would believe it in the first place. Their capacity for denial seems to exceed that of Egypt and Sudan.

They'd rationalize him chickening out of a debate so fast it might exceed the speed of light.

 

[acbytesla]

After what has already transpired it's difficult to imagine anything short of violent felonies against little white girls which would make him look worse.

Especially where his supporters are concerned. And even that might not be sufficient. Assuming they would believe it in the first place. Their capacity for denial seems to exceed that of Egypt and Sudan.

They'd rationalize him chickening out of a debate so fast it might exceed the speed of light.

In the end can't imagine him chickening out. The attacks on his manhood alone would be merciless.

Ie: Clearly Trump's junk has to be small when Hillary just demonstrated that she is more a man than he is.

The press and the comedians would be all over that.

 

[quadraginta]

In the end can't imagine him chickening out. The attacks on his manhood alone would be merciless.

Ie: Clearly Trump's junk has to be small when Hillary just demonstrated that she is more a man than he is.

The press and the comedians would be all over that.

Well, he does have little teeny hands.

 

[Foolmewunz]

Maybe the term I'm looking for doesn't exist. But I've seen this disingenuous tactic used and I can see how it can be effective. That is why it is essential to point it out.

It's a "false flag", if what you suspect is accurate.

 

[acbytesla]

It's a "false flag", if what you suspect is accurate.

Thank you.

 

[Tony Stark]

Clearly the DNC helped Hillary despite fanatical Hillary hater 16.5's delusional claim that it was a disaster for her.

LOL.

 

[grunion]

Who voted to get rid of slavery? It wasn't slaves and it wasn't angry people on the street. White senators were convinced, by other senators, to vote for the 13th amendment.

And these "other senators" were convinced by ---? Why it's just senators all the way down I guess.

I've walked picket lines and was involved in a few sit-ins. I've been arrested 3 times for protesting nuclear weapons. But I have no illusions. Protests can only focus the spotlight on an issue. It NEVER EVER changes anything. Real effective protesters in the 60s and 70s knew that. Because they went beyond just staging a protest. The Civil Rights act of 1964 was not passed by the March on Washington or Selma. It was passed by courageous leaders in Washington. Many lost their seats because of that. What would have happened if MLK had refused to meet with JFK or LBJ?

How do you compare the courage a senator shows by standing up for his constituency (ie doing his job) compared with the courage 600 marchers showed on March 7, 1965 when they attempted to cross the Edmund Pettis Bridge against a gang of Alabama State Troopers and heavily armed White Supremacist thugs? They did a whole heck of a lot more than getting laws passed.

I think Stein is no more representative of Sanders' ideals than Trump actually represents anything people are voting for when they vote for him.

It's voting for an image, not a person who would actually move the needle toward said ideals. How sad that people think such an important vote should be for an image and not based on who would actually do the best job or who is most qualified.

Even if I hadn't already resolved myself to voting for Hilary I wouldn't consider Stein. She'd just be another flawed candidate I'd end up voting for.

I never said that protests were useless only if they have immediate tangible results, but protests that are counterproductive are useless.

Ah thank you for that tautological summary of your thinking on this matter.

 

[quadraginta]

<snip>

Ah thank you for that tautological summary of your thinking on this matter.

Can't argue with logic like that. It's irrefutable.

Which is one way to win an argument, I guess.

 

[Tony Stark]

Fist fights on the floor, shades of 1968.

Long time since a major party has been in such disarray.

Those pictures of an obviously pissed off sanders are the take away moment of the night.

Blood on the floor, the story of the 2016 democrat party convention.

Nightmare for Hillary. Bad speech, poorly presented, and a war on the floor.

Where is 16.5? Does he still stand by these insane posts?

 

[The Don]

Where is 16.5? Does he still stand by these insane posts?

Well for an ardent Bernie Bro such as 16.5, I guess the convention was a major disappointment. He's now left with a choice between Trump and Hillary. For a dyed in the wool socialist like him that's a touch choice - them both being far too right wing for his tastes