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Continuation - The PG Film - Bob Heironimus and Patty

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Kitakaze doesn't seem to post here anymore or extremely rarely. I'd say that there is a high likelihood that he will not respond to you, Roger.
Thanx. Maybe someone will PM him.

That's not necessary, though. Mine was in part a rhetorical question ("Was that the first time they borrowed Chico, or the second?"), addressed not only to Kit but also to all who might be aware of what BH had said on the matter of the double borrowings, or who might have thoughts on the matter.

Secondly, it was intended to inform readers who mightn’t be aware of BH’s claim of double borrowings. It’s easy to miss stuff like that if one has only read the book once or twice.

Finally, it was also a lead-in to my inquiry as to why Opal apparently hadn't mentioned that two borrowings had occurred. That in turn could lead to further questions. Again, defenders of BH might have some light or heat to shed.
 
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I think that BF can't be "real" unless there's a joker in the pack (of reality)--which I already believe, based on three ESP experiences I had a long time ago. So BF could be a tulpa or something of that nature.
A tulpa? Well then it never shows up on film, right? Tulpas wouldn't leave tracks or hair or poop or bodies or body parts.

Maybe I misunderstand you. You argue for the authenticity of the PGF, then you say that if Bigfoot does exist then it is a tulpa or "something of that nature". You say there must be a Joker in the deck of reality if Bigfoot exists. You mean like paranormalcy? Paranormal but still filmable?
 
A tulpa? Well then it never shows up on film, right? Tulpas wouldn't leave tracks or hair or poop or bodies or body parts.

Maybe I misunderstand you. You argue for the authenticity of the PGF, then you say that if Bigfoot does exist then it is a tulpa or "something of that nature". You say there must be a Joker in the deck of reality if Bigfoot exists. You mean like paranormalcy? Paranormal but still filmable?
Thanx for correcting me on my misuse of the word. I meant "something of that nature"--e.g., an inter-dimensional visitor that is only real here briefly. Is there a word for that (other than crazy)?
 
Now that I've made 15 comments, here's a map of Gimlin's place in 1967:
508aa069.png

(Enough for this afternoon.)
 
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I'm recovering, if that's the right word, from a bad case of Bigfoot burnout.

Allo, Roger. Welcome.

I know what you mean, tbh. Bigfoot can be an entirely boring subject after a little while, considering there's literally no news regarding its existence, like, ever. This is why the hot Bigfoot topic is and always will be the PGF...from all the way back in 1967!
 
When BLAARGing you have a thread to needle to avoid saying what you are saying: Bob Heironimus is a liar.

He is a liar and instead of wearing a modified gorilla suit it was an inter-dimensional visitor whose only purpose for being on earth is to fake a bigfoot encounter.

In all my research on inter-dimensional visitors like Mars Attacks, they want to come wipe out the congress and president. So this is a notable visit.
 
Thanx. Maybe someone will PM him.

That's not necessary, though. Mine was in part a rhetorical question ("Was that the first time they borrowed Chico, or the second?"), addressed not only to Kit but also to all who might be aware of what BH had said on the matter of the double borrowings, or who might have thoughts on the matter.

Secondly, it was intended to inform readers who mightn’t be aware of BH’s claim of double borrowings. It’s easy to miss stuff like that if one has only read the book once or twice.

Finally, it was also a lead-in to my inquiry as to why Opal apparently hadn't mentioned that two borrowings had occurred. That in turn could lead to further questions. Again, defenders of BH might have some light or heat to shed.

Hello, Roger. A friend messaged me to let me know you were asking after me.

Roger has made use of Chico on four occasions that we know of. Once in Roger's South Fork Ahtanum Valley film film about the pursuit of Bigfoot by a band of cowboys to a mystical mountain...

896149ab269001bdc.jpg


He was used for the eight days in early October at Bluff Creek during which the film was shot...



He was used again when the event was staged on October 20, 1967.

Also Chico was used by Roger when they shot the cover of Argosy magazine...

thum_896149ab1a3ecb321.jpg


In all the interviews I did with Heironimus I spoke with him regarding Chico only on the period of when the film was shot.

I can speak with him about the other occasions that Chico was used by Roger, but I will need to try and dig up his contact info, which I have in storage in Canada, and I live in Sapporo, Japan.

What we know is that Gimlin has told various lies regarding Chico and trying to account for why he had the horse his former long-time trusted friend, Bob Heironimus.

Version 1 is him providing his own horse and he didn't expect support from anyone else with it...

Gimlin: No, he didn't finance my part of the trip at all. I had my own horse, my own equipment and my own food. I didn't expect somebody else to support me on that. It would be nice if I could have gotten part of the fuel pay paid and expenses on the truck.

http://www.bigfootencounters.com/interviews/john.htm

Version 2 is him having Heironimus' horse already at his home as part of a favour he was doing for Heironimus, who was his close, trusted friend...


Gimlin has boarded and trained horses for decades. It was not uncommon to for him to board horses of neighbors. During the late 1960's one of the horses he boarded was owned by Hieronimous. It was, in fact, Hieronimous' horse that Bob brought down to Bluff Creek in 1967.


http://www.bfro.net/.../korff_scam.asp

In that scenario Roger has no part in the equation. Having Chico is an arrangement between Heironimus and Gimlin and Gimlin taking Heironimus' horse from Gimlin's home where it was supposedly being boarded is his action, not Roger's.

Version 3 is oops, wait a minute, did I say that? No, no, I had nothing to do with the horses at all and that was entirely Roger's doing...

Thom: There are sources that you an... that you had Bob Heronimous's horse na... uh, named Chico at Bluff Creek.


Bob: Okay... I did have Bob Heronimous's horse because Roger had, apparently, borrowed that horse from Bob Heronimous. 'Cause I never got the horses together to go. Roger gathered up the horses... I had the transportation and I knew the horse. I'd been around the horse before... Big, stout... good roping horse and I think Bob used him back in those days to rope on but Bob Heronimous actually had that horse early in some of the work he was doing for Roger as well as myself where Roger was trying to get together a film to generate revenue to go on an expedition.


That's not Roger coming to Gimlin's house and here you go, I'm borrowing this horse you already have from your friend Heironimus and I am getting all the horses together and the arrangement you have with Heironimus in which you have his horse has nothing to do with me gathering all the horses.

That's also polar opposite of what Gimlin testified to in Yakima Superior Court where he was providing the horses when he was justifying his entitlement to film rights.

They are completely self-contradictory statements.
 
Gimlin didn’t live nearby Heironimus “since before ... 1967”; in that year, and until about 1970, he lived in Union Gap, just east of Yakima, on 2614 Rudkin Rd. His address was in the 1967 & 1968 Polk City Directories, which a librarian looked up for me; she was at the Yakima Valley Museum: 509-248-0747.

You are correct. That was an error from my interviews with Bob Heironimus six years ago.

They have, however, lived nine doors from each other for decades and were close , trusted friends up until the publishing of Greg Long's book. Mike Trammel, the manager of Noel Pepsi Corporation where both Heironimus and Gimlin worked, went on record that it was common knowledge among the employees at the plant that Heironimus and Gimlin had hoaxed the film together. Heironimus has witnesses to his claim of being in the suit at Bluff Creek as far back as 1970.

My interview with Gary Record including his account of the night in 1970 when Heironimus confronted Al DeAtley to try and get the payment promised him by Roger...



Transcript from my interview with suit witness Gary Record...
KK: Are you a friend of Bob Heironimus'?
GR: Yes, I am.
KK: How long have you known him?
GR: About 60 years.
KK: How did you meet?
GR: Oh... his parents came up from Missouri. They had a two ton truck. We met here in Yakima.
KK: Do you remember going with Bob around 1970 to see Waylon Jennings and Jessi Colter do a show?
GR: Yes, I do.
KK: Do you remember where the show was at?
GR: (pause) That would have been the Saddle Tree. The Saddle Tree Club
KK: And who was with you?
GR: Oh, let me think. It was Bob, Glenda, that's Bob's wife. Her sister, Diane and Bob. That's her husband.
KK: The Clifts, you mean? Bob and Diane Clift? Diane was Bob's sister?
GR: No, no. Diane was Bob's wife's sister.
KK: Sorry, thanks. And do remember Bob having any important conversation at that show?
GR: Well, he talked to someone about the movie - Patterson's movie. You see, they had left him in a bad way about it. They never paid him for it.
KK: So you know about Bob's role in the movie as being the Bigfoot, the guy who wore the suit?
GR: Oh, sure, I do. Of course, yeah.
KK: And who was this person Bob was talking to?
GR: Al. Al DeAtley.
KK: You knew Al DeAtley?
GR: Sure, I knew him. I worked for him for 10 years.
KK: Worked for him? You mean his pavement company?
GR: That's right.
KK: What did you do?
GR: I drove truck.
KK: I know it's a very long time ago, but do you remember anything that was said between Bob and Al?
GR: Oh, I'm not sure. I don't think I was right there. Bob wanted to get the money Roger promised him.
KK: You weren't standing next to Bob at the time?
GR: No, I don't think so. I wasn't right there. I saw him right after. He wasn't too happy. Roger had promised him $1000
KK: And did you know Roger personally?
GR: Yes, I did.
KK: What can you tell me about him? His personality, I mean.
GR. Well, he was out to make the quick dollar. He never would work. Always trying to make it rich.
KK: What was his reputation like in the community at the time? What did people think of him?
GR: Scheister. We are a farming community, you see. We were farmers. He wanted the quick dollar. He was trying to make movies in Dry Gulch. It didn't pan out.
KK: What about Bob Gimlin? Did you know him, as well?
GR: Yes, I knew him. As an acquaintence.
KK: But you knew him personally? You met him, I mean.
GR: Oh, yes I did.
KK: And what can you tell me about Gimlin? What was your impression of him?
GR: More of the same, I guess. Just out to make the quick buck. He was an alright bronc rider.
KK: What was his reputation like? Like, around Yakima. What did people think of him?
GR: Alright, I guess. He wanted the quick buck like Roger, wanted to just ride rodeo. He drove freight for a while.
KK: Let me ask you about something different, if I may. I want to ask about Bob going down to California and doing the movie. Did you see Bob right after he returned?
GR: Yes, I did. Just when he come back. He showed me the suit. Wanted to show me what it looked like.
KK: And where was this?
GR: It was in Wiley City at one of the watering holes there. There were two of them.
KK: Was that the Idle Hour Tavern?
GR: I think so, yeah. Or it was the other one.
KK: And what time of day was it when Bob showed you the suit. Was it day or night?
GR: I'd say it was about 9:00 pm at night or around there.
KK: And how may times have you seen that suit?
GR: Just the one time.
KK You never saw Bob with a suit again?
GR: No.
KK: Do you know how long he had it?
GR: I think they came and got it the next day just after that.
KK: Patterson and Gimlin, you mean.
GR: That's right.
KK: Have you ever heard any rumours of Bob Heironimus being in Yakima or any other place in a Bigfoot suit other than the one time in Bluff Creek?
GR: No, I haven't.
KK: What would you say is Bob's reputation in Yakima?
GR: Just normal, I'd say. A normal community friend. I still see him once in a while.


Bob Gimlin on his friendship with Heironimus...

"I know Bob. He's been a friend of mine for a long time, but as far as I'm concerned, he was not there that I know of, and I don't think he was there at all. And he probably tryin' to make a buck. These guys are coming out of the wall saying the've been in a suit down in Norrthern California."

"I'd say the story Bob has come up with is pretty far-fetched as far as I'm concerned. You know, I've confronted Bob on that. I've said, 'Hey, what's going on?' But he won't talk about it. We're still friends. He just lives a little ways from me. I've worked with him and I've done things with Bob. I've rode horses with him. But this thing he's telling all the people around that he was in a suit in Northern California, it kind of just don't make sense to me."

"I used to trust Bob a lot, but then lately him and the whole family kind of prevaricates. They think things. You know, I don't make statements against my friends or neighbours, but this thing is kind of out of proportion as far as I'm concerned."
Bob Gimlin to Greg Long - September 18, 2001. MoB, p. 422

Al DeAtley on knowing Bob Heironimus through Roger...

I told him that Bob Heironimus had confessed to me that he had worn the Bigfoot suit for one thousand dollars and later he approached DeAtley at the Saddle Tree and asked when he was going to get paid. DeAtley was unflustered. "It sounds like something I might have done. I've been there (at the Saddle tree) and I knew Bob through Roger." I perked up. "So that we make sure we're talking about the same guy..." I said.
"He had one bad eye," said DeAtley. "That's right, that's Heironimus." I asked him why he thought Heironimus approached him. "I would have assumed that that meant he and Roger had a deal, and he and Roger would have to work it through. I would have told him, '(expletive) you. Go see Roger.'"
- MoB, p. 426

Ray Wallace on being visited by DeAtley and Patterson at his home...



"Roger had a rich brother-in-law that owned a rock crusher as he was here with Roger one time at my place so I am sure he financed Roger to help him get that movie."

Heironimus was a close, trusted friend of Gimlin's all the way up until 2004. If it was common knowledge at their work place that Heironimus was part of the hoax with Gimlin, how could Gimlin consider him a trusted friend?

Because like he did when he denied to Greg Long when first called then visited at home any involvement in the South Fork film that we know he was a cast member of, he was protecting himself and Gimlin from publicly revealing the hoax.

Heironimus on being compensated by Gimlin...

BH: "Eighteen years ago at the Noel Corporation where I work, people found out about me. Four hundred people work there. Little things slipped out. They told me I should sell my story."

GL: "Noel?"

BH: "Yeah. They make Pepsi products."

GL: "Almost thirty-five years have gone by, Bob. Thirty-five years. You could have sold your story years ago and made some money. Why have you waited this long to tell it?"

BH: "It's pretty simple. I told them I wouldn't tell."

GL: "You told Patterson you wouldn't tell?"

BH: "Yeah, and I didn't. I kept my word. Two years ago (January 1999) I told Gimlin, 'It's time I made some money out of this thing. I'm blowing the whistle. I'm going to tell the truth.' He said, 'Well, don't mention my name.' Well, how could I not mention his name when he was there during the whole thing? I remember when he had done an interview for the BBC. It's where he rides through an orchard in the snow and dismounts. Well, he came up to me one day on the job. That's when he drove long haul truck for Noel. He says, 'Since you haven't got a dime out of this, I feel bad. Here's a hundred dollars.' And he shoved it down my shirt pocket. I said, 'Aw, I don't want the money. That's peanuts.' He said the BBC paid him two hundred and fifty dollars. But I really didn't believe that. Maybe twenty-five hundred."

GL: "Did you keep the money?"

BH: "Yeah. He wouldn't take no for an answer."


Heironimus was referring to Gimlin's appearance on Arthur C. Clarke's Mysterious World...

https://youtu.be/_8tS6Izy_W0
 
(I’m replying here to your first comment, #2969.)
Thanks for the confirmation that Heironimus claimed Chico was borrowed twice. And for bringing up the possibility that he was borrowed a third time for the February 1968 Argosy cover shot.

However, I think it’s likely that that shot was made during one of the two previous borrowings, or even during the filming of the “Documentary,” in which Gimlin wore an Indian wig, as in the cover photo. I read somewhere that Sanderson supplied the photo to Argosy from an amateur photo, presumably supplied by Patterson. Patterson would have wanted a photo like that to use in a movie poster for his documentary.

The Argosy issue came out so soon after the filming that arranging a photo shoot and rounding up Chico for it would have been a tight squeeze. Also, it would have forced Patterson to confront his creditor and ask for a favor, something he’d presumable want to avoid.

My interest in this matter is the possibility it raises that Long mightn’t have asked Opal if she’d seen Chico returned more than once. He already knew that Heironimus implied this had happened, so it would have been a natural question to ask.

If Long did ask the question and she replied that she did remember two borrowings, that would support Heironimus’s story, so Long should have asked. It would be an indication of carelessness if he hadn’t printed her answer.

OTOH, if Long asked and she said she didn’t remember two borrowings, and Long failed to print that, it would be an indication of something worse than carelessness.

Back to the first option: If there were two borrowings that she remembered, it would raise the possibility that she conflated the two returns and thereby mis-remembered part of what happened somehow.
==============

Regarding Gimlin’s “lies” about Chico, you’ve presented what looks like a good case, with neat wit to season your points, but I’ll raise the following lawyerly objections:

In Version 1, Gimlin says, I’ve got my own horse.” But that could have been the packhorse. (Although colloquially one would expect “my horse” to refer to a riding horse.) Or maybe Roger’s supposed Pony of the America’s (POA) that he rode (according to Long) actually belonged to, or was boarded by, Gimlin; or Patterson hadn’t paid fully for it, if he had “bought” it from Gimlin. That could maybe have counted as “my horse” for Gimlin, since he was supplying it or hadn’t been fully paid for it.

In Version 2 Gimlin boarded Heironimus’s horse out of friendship, or for some other innocuous motive. Note that it wasn’t Gimlin who made that claim, but BFRO on his behalf, so Gimlin shouldn’t be held to it, necessarily. “In that scenario Roger has no part of the equation.” But in Version 3 Gimlin said, “I never got the horses together to go. Roger gathered up the horses.”

Those aren’t necessarily conflicting statements. Roger could have gathered Chico and his POA and dropped them off at Gimlin’s a day or so before one of the trips down to California. IOW, the horses could have been “gathered to go” at his place by Patterson, and Gimlin’s statement, “I never got the horses together to go” would not necessarily be false.

As far as what Gimlin testified to in Yakima Superior Court, we don’t know what’s really in it—or anyway, I don’t know. Is there a transcript or are there excerpts available? If the packhorse was his and “Patterson’s” POA was actually his, or had been sold to Patterson who hadn’t yet paid him for it, then his “horses” wouldn’t be untrue.

If only we knew who owned those three horses. It’s amazing that such questions weren’t nailed down long ago. (Maybe the answers, or some answers, are in Byrne’s extensive tapes, to be released eventually, hopefully.)
=======

Speaking of basic things we ought to know, I’m desperate to know the names of all six of Heironimus’s October 21, 1967, Idle Hour suit- witnesses, which I’ll need to deal your Gary Record interview (which you brought up in your second post above, #2970). I’d also like to know how many of them vouched for Gary Record’s presence besides Bob and Howard Heironimus (and maybe Bill Heironimus, who is dead):
Bernard Hammermeister?
Russ Bohannon?
Les Johnson?? (But he’s dead, and was only an ear-witness, and that wasn’t not necessarily to the October 1967 suit display. )
Someone else?
I have the cell phone number of Hammermeister, if you lack it and want it.
 
This is in response to the first two sentences in the second paragraph of your second comment, #2970:
Mike Trammel, the manager of Noel Pepsi Corporation where both Heironimus and Gimlin worked, went on record that it was common knowledge among the employees at the plant that Heironimus and Gimlin had hoaxed the film together.
Not exactly:
Trammel was quick to say that he had known Bob Heironimus for eighteen years, starting the day Bob was hired. And he had known of Bob’s story for at least ten years. “Oh, the guys at work have known about it forever. And if you ask him [Heironimus] about it and what really happened, he’ll tell you.”
—The Making of Bigfoot, p. 418
In ““Oh, the guys at work have known about it forever,” the “it” refers only to “Bob’s story.” Knowing “about” Heironimus’s story didn’t mean that they all believed it, necessarily. And even if they did all believe it, that was no more “common knowledge” than “knowing” that a pair of co-workers had an affair decades ago because a trusted third party (who stands to gain from saying so) says so.

BTW, Bob’s manager at Noell Corp. was not Mike Trammel, but his father Don. Mike was the person who gave me Don’s cell phone number. (If that was how Long got it too, he could have got mixed up when consulting his notes.)
 
We have this showing where they live now...
I just remembered--brother Mike Heironimus lives a few houses away from Bob. Someone should add an arrow pointing to his house too to the photo.

PS: And probably Opal's old place should be indicated also.
 
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PS re Don Trammel:
Trammel was quick to say that he had known Bob Heironimus for eighteen years, starting the day Bob was hired.
—The Making of Bigfoot, p. 418
That’s not true; he’d known him from his early teen years and beyond, because he told me he babysat for his younger brothers. He told me he was closely involved with the Heironimus family since that time, socializing extensively with them; I calculate that could have been for up to 50 years or more. (He was born in 1934.)

This might be something he concealed from Long, or Long might have concealed from us, presumably in order to make him appear an unbiased voucher for Heironimus:
Trammel—I believe him.
Long—And what do you base that on?
Trammell—Just knowing him. I’ve never heard the guy lie about anything. If he hadn’t done it, he wouldn’t have said he did.
—The Making of Bigfoot, pp. 418–19
Or, more likely, there’s an innocent explanation: probably he told Long he’d known Heironimus on the job for 18 years, and Long omitted that qualifier, thinking it unnecessary.
 
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From a different thread posted yesterday:

Warm and fuzzy, eh?

But you are correct dmaker. The vast majority of my time here, I've been treated very fairly so I do retract my previous post.
Whoa, whoa, whoa there champ. If you're going to use other people's post to prove your point - try not to misquote them by trimming them down to remove context OK?

Here is my actual post.
So what you're saying is that bigfoot bleevers also believe in Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairy - because that's what their daddy told them when they were kids?
BF Bleevers are just morons that never had an education or an original thought since their childhood?
Here's what you posted of it.
BF Bleevers are just morons that never had an education or an original thought since their childhood"
Notice how much different that post is without the context and the question mark removed?
My remarks were a question to you about your take on the mentality of the BFF denizens, not a statement by me about them.
I questioned your statement that people don't change their mind about something their daddy told them when they were a kid.
I was being sincere. It helps to explain, to me, that he was told at a very early and influential age that Bigfoot doesn't exist, can't exist, and surprise surprise, in his mind, it doesn't. In my own words (who else's could I possibly use??), I don't think it's a coincidence that his current mindset is in line with what his father told him to believe.

I would be interested to hear if others firmly on the non-existence platform were told at a young age that there's no such thing from someone they looked up to.
I was not calling bleevers morons, I was questioning your logic that implied that, once told by their daddies, they weren't smart enough to make up their own minds in adulthood.

Not very honest of you - especially when you are complaining about fair treatment on this forum.
 
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Regarding the Ray Wallace handwritten page provided by Kit: First, here is what precedes it on the page (numbered 3 atop the page):
”areas as they [unknown] had orders for the ferns so they went west of Notice Creek to pick ferns in the green timber lands. That’s where Roger took the movie of the Teeseeatcoe [probably an Indian name for Bigfoot].”
Error: Roger Patterson actually filmed Patty about 3.75 ground miles NNE of Notice Creek.
”I have told hundreds of researchers where to go to get movies of these”
Exaggeration: He may have told hundreds of people where to go, but not likely more than dozens of researchers—of whom only a minority were likely looking to make a movie.

This is why Wallace is unreliable right off the bat. As far as his background goes, it’s even worse. He has always tried to make out like he was somethin’ by inventing unlikely and impossible stories. He has the pranking personality of Ivan Marx and other yarn spinners. His unsupported word can’t carry much weight if he makes an serious accusation, especially if it has the effect of enhancing his importance.

Now let’s see what can be said specifically against his claim below:
"Roger had a rich brother-in-law that owned a rock crusher as he was here with Roger one time at my place so I am sure he financed Roger to help him get that movie."
1. “that owned a rock crusher”? Huh? That isn’t how Patterson would have described him, or DeAtley would have either. He very likely didn’t “own,” personally, any such item. Even the company, in difficulties as it was, likely rented much of its equipment.

2. It’s known that Patterson visited Wallace at one time, believed to be around 1964, perhaps when he was in the Bluff Creek area investigating and taping sighting reports and documenting and casting the Laird Meadow footprint find.

If he saw Wallace down there, then that wasn’t a day trip—he was down there for many days, maybe weeks. (He had no regular job to restrain him.) It wouldn’t make sense to drive over 500 miles from Yakima and stay only a couple of days. But would it make sense for Al DeAtley to do the same? No--he did have a regular job, in Washington (the company didn’t operate elsewhere then) and Superior Asphalt needed him.

Even if DeAtley was interested in Bigfoot or in backing Patterson financially, his presence in California for a week or more wasn’t really necessary. He could have listened to Patterson’s tapes, looked at his photos, and placed a message with Wallace at his company for him to call if he wanted to ask Wallace questions.

However, it’s possible that Patterson visited him closer to home if “at my place” meant in Toledo, Washington, about 80 miles due west of Yakima., If so, DeAtley might have spared some time to accompany him. But:

3. In 1964 DeAtley wasn’t rich and didn’t own the company. It came into his hands after his father died or retired, which was a year or two after that. And those first years were tough. I’ve read somewhere that the company nearly went under, and that it was only the money from the filming tour, starting in the fall of 1968, that saved the company. DeAtley told Long that he worked 80-hour weeks (TMoB, p. 273). So it’s unlikely a person like DeAtley would have spent serious money on Patterson’s expeditions.

For what it’s worth, and it has the ring of truth to me (in context with the rest of the interview and what’s known of him), DeAtley claimed he had no interest in Bigfoot as such and that he only became involved financially with Bigfoot after the filming:
DeAtley—I never believed in Bigfoot. . . . I thought it was, you know, a bunch of bullsh*t, and I’ve built roads my whole life. . . .
. . . . . . . . . . .
I built roads all over the mountains here, from here to Seattle. I’ve been up and down every piece of that ◊◊◊◊. And I never saw Bigfoot. I had no interest. None whatsoever.
—The Making of Bigfoot, p. 250
The only thing that I believe in that I can’t touch, feel, and kiss, is God. I believe in that. But everything else I gotta touch it to believe it. And even some stuff I still don’t believe it.
—The Making of Bigfoot, p. 250
Al DeAtley—Everybody had the impression that I was rich, ’cause I’m in business. I make all this goddamned money, ’cause they see, “Well, he’s got a contract, a contract for a half a million dollars.” Sometimes these half million dollar jobs we lost money on.
. . . . . . . . .
And they [the Patterson family] thought I was rich. And I wasn’t. I was f***in’ poorer than they were, frankly, a lot of times during that [period].
—The Making of Bigfoot, p. 246
Long—I asked DeAtley if he paid Patterson’s expenses for these outings [“pre-expeditions”], before the Bluff Creek footage, about 1964, 1965, 1966.
DeAtley—I don’t recall. If I did it was a very small amount.
—The Making of Bigfoot, 248
Long—. . . before the footage, you’re saying you didn’t spend or loan him any money, or give him any money for expenses to look for Bigfoot?
DeAtley—If I did, it was twenty bucks here and twenty bucks there. . . . I was a busy man. . . . I knew for twenty bucks I could get rid of him. . . . Otherwise, he’d stand there and try to sell me on his great theories, or some goddamned thing. “Here, take twenty bucks and get out of here.”
—The Making of Bigfoot, 250
Long—So you’re saying you didn’t say to Roger, “Roger, I’ll be a partner with you in this hunt for Bigfoot.”
DeAtley—No. . . . I got involved financially after the footage.
—The Making of Bigfoot, 251
4. It’s possible that Patterson told others that DeAtley was backing him, perhaps as an inducement for them to get on the bandwagon and invest also, or at least to take his story seriously. I.e., because of that claim’s implication that there must be something to Bigfoot’s reality if a hard-headed businessman had been persuaded to take a flyer on it.
Or perhaps it was only meant as a tribute to Patterson’s powers of persuasion, so Patterson could “make out like he was somethin’,” even if it wasn’t much.
 
Decades go by and not one self-professed "bigfoot researcher" sets foot in Yakima to meet the principles of the PGF hoax and ask around if people know about it.

Because they know they will find exactly the same kind of thing the people of Harrison Hot Springs Canada will tell you, where John Green was running hoax stories. People are going to point out who the main pranksters are on the Chamber of Commerce, the so-called newspaper or newsletter Green put out, etc.

Once a real journalist, a real investigator goes to Yakima, he gets the whole story, Bob Heironimus in the suit, everyone at his work and around town know it's him.

There's a lot of interesting drama with Patterson defrauding an old lady, an old man, anyone who sent cash into his pretend research organization...

The road trip with DeAtley - wow, that is wonderful to have preserved as a piece of Americana. DeAtley's business was in trouble. He is right that half a million sounds like a lot. But you are committing huge amounts of capital, binding yourself to labor and suppliers, Murphy's law prevails and you can lose money instead of making it.

So to DeAtley, investing six hundred bucks into a gorilla suit for Patterson is chump change. He has a million dollars of business credit line. He has been watching Roger, his brother-in-law, film a rented gorilla suit out of Hollywood.

But it looks too much like a gorilla suit. They can't modify a rental. So they have to buy one from Phillip Morris. The road trip is such a smash they out-sell Simon and Garfunkel at the peak of their careers in Salt Lake City Utah. What a story! But when they hit Minnesota, the Minnesota Ice Man Hoax has just broken. Their movie flops. That was the end of the glorious four-walling road show and DeAtley went back to building roads.

After this story breaks and effectively ends doubt about the hoax, suddenly bigfooters are out there to make sure that Bob Heironimus is exactly 7.3 blocks from Bob Gimlin and not 1 block, or whatever it is. To flood the very simple narrative with all manner of inane red herring.

Of course, one isn't saying that somehow any of this contradicts the simple story of Bob Heironimus being the guy in the suit. Is the great weight of the non-evidence the same as bigfoot sightings, where the greater the amount of non-evidence, the more likely bigfoot is to exist? If we can nitpick enough on Greg Long, then Bob Heironimus must not be in the suit? Just clouds of billowing smoke.

DeAtley of course never admits directly to fraud. So he has to say he was not a part of planning the hoax, funding the suit beforehand and planning the whole announcement, marketing, and so forth.

Why ole Al just sees this amazing footage Roger came up with all by himself. lol. Saying it that way puts all the fraud on Roger alone. But he certainly funded the suit, the film development, etc. Roger could not even afford gas money. From the point of purchasing the Morris suit Al DeAtley was acting as producer for the PGF.
 
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There is the slight wrinkle that if DeAtley became involved only after the PGF was filmed then how did he know Heironimus through Roger well enough to recall his appearance decades later?

DeAtley almost certainly came with Roger to Wallace's home in Toledo. Wallace was the owner of the stompers used for the hoaxed tracks at Blue Creek Mountain Rd and Bluff Creek that were used as the reason for Patterson and Gimlin coming to Bluff Creek.

That's the same hoaxer who was collaborating with the managing editor of the Times-Standard Laurence "Scoop" Beal as admitted by his wife after he passed away.
 
Heironimus was a close, trusted friend of Gimlin's all the way up until 2004. If it was common knowledge at their work place that Heironimus was part of the hoax with Gimlin, how could Gimlin consider him a trusted friend?
First, let’s push the date back five years to January 1999—that’s when Heironimus announced (anonymously, through his lawyer), that he was the man in the suit, and the Yakima Herald printed two stories on it, which were republished widely. But Gimlin, presumably, would soon have known that it was Heironimus behind the announcement.

And second, let’s revise “common knowledge” to “widespread belief,” which is a less presuming term. (I should have drawn a parallel, in my prior comment on this matter, that it was “common knowledge” around Superior Asphalt that the PGF was a hoax—but those employees didn’t know that for a fact, they’d only heard it, at first or second hand, from DeAtley, and they presumed that he did know that for a fact. But when Long grilled DeAtley, he said his conclusion was an inference from unlikelihood, not something he knew. So the phrase used there too should have been “widely believed,” not “common Knowledge.”)

Kit’s is a good question. (The whole matter of their continuing friendship is a puzzler.) Bigfooters close to Gimlin should try to nail down what happened in those five years. For example, by 2004, when no media biggies had “bit” on Heironimus’s story and his chances of being paid looked dim, it’s odd that Gimlin didn’t appeal to him to forget about any exposé, if they were friends. (Heironimus had told Gimlin before he went public that “It’s time I made some money out of this thing. I’m blowing the whistle.” (TMoB, p. 340) But Heironimus didn’t mention Gimlin doing so.)

An inference about Gimlin’s failure to object to Heironimus’s telling people at Noell that he was Bigfoot in the film, and nevertheless staying friendly with him, is that is that he didn’t want to get Heironimus riled up, which might trigger him to go public. I assume Kit is thinking along that line.

One alternative explanation is that Gimlin might have been grateful to Heironimus if Heironimus had steered him to the job at Noell (correct spelling). Heironimus was working there for at least eight years before Gimlin, so that’s a possibility. I can think of other defenses, but they’re so speculative that I’d rather not.

Because like he [Heironimus] did when he denied to Greg Long when first called then visited at home any involvement in the South Fork film that we know he was a cast member of, he was protecting himself and Gimlin from publicly revealing the hoax.
There’s another interpretation, but first let’s look at the record:
Long—On December 5, 1998, I telephoned Bob Heironimus.
—The Making of Bigfoot, p. 145
Long—I sprung the question on him: “Were you part of that movie? [the “documentary”]”
Heironimus—“No,” he answered flatly.”
—The Making of Bigfoot, p. 147
Long—You’re not going to say one way or the other?
Heironimus—No. . Not yet, nope.
—The Making of Bigfoot, p. 148
Long—So are you saying that you weren’t in that movie that he was producing?
Heironimus—Well, I’m not going to say that, no.
Long—Ah! A contradiction to his earlier statement. “OK”
Heironimus—I’m not gonna talk to anybody, you know, until I do a little research on this thing and tell you what I know about it.
Long—Research? What was there to research?
—The Making of Bigfoot, p.149
Heironimus—I’m not gonna, you know, tell everything that I know about this Bigfoot until, you know, I talk to the right people.
Long—Right.
Heironimus—I know you’re writing a book, I mean, uh. . . .”
—The Making of Bigfoot, p. 150
December 5, 1998 was less than two months before Heironimus’s lawyer, Barry Woodard, issued his press release. In advance of that, the lawyer had probably told Heironimus to keep mum, especially to media people, lest he dilute the exclusiveness of what they hoped to sell. (The “right people” were, I presume, Woodard and their common friend Coffey.)

That’s by far the best explanation for his reticence. Acknowledging that he was in the documentary along with Gimlin wouldn’t have incriminated Gimlin of hoaxing the PGF. (FWIW, Heironimus told Long to contact Gimlin (TMoB, p. 148).)
 
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I should have said in my just-preceding comment, about Heironimus’s reticence being best explained by his lawyer’s likely request not to dilute the exclusiveness of the story they wanted to sell, that Heironimus was similarly closed-mouth about another matter than his involvement in Patterson’s documentary: He refused to comment on whether or not he wore an ape suit, as Les Johnson had said (TMoB, pp. 148–49). He was also cagey about the extent of his familiarity with Patterson (TMoB, pp. 145–46 & 150–51).
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There is the slight wrinkle that if DeAtley became involved only after the PGF was filmed then how did he know Heironimus through Roger well enough to recall his appearance decades later?
1. It’s not too surprising they might have met at some family gathering. DeAtley married into Patterson’s family (Patterson’s sister Iva). Heironimus was close to the Mondor family, into which Patterson married. (Brother Howard lived with the Mondors for a year or so.)

2. Heironimus might have been along for the ride after the two of them had gone riding in the forest when Roger decided to visit his sister, DeAtley’s wife, whom he was close to. Heironimus might have wanted to see her again too, for old times' sake.

3. Heironimus might have accompanied Patterson on some of his numerous visits to Harvey Anderson’s camera shop. (I’ve interviewed four former employees, but I haven’t posted what they told me yet.) One of them said that half the time Patterson was accompanied by a big, silent guy. It might have been Heironimus. (I asked John Ballard, a big guy who has a chapter in Long’s book, if it had been him and he denied it.) If so, he might have accompanied him to DeAtley’s home and encountered DeAtley.

4. Maybe Patterson recommended Heironimus for occasional work for his company, like guarding a site at night, or driving a truck to pick up a spare part that was needed, or doing something on a weekend.

A meeting via mutual pre-PGF involvement in a hoax isn't the only way they might have met through Roger. It's only one possibility.
==========

DeAtley almost certainly came with Roger to Wallace's home in Toledo.
There’s no basis for your certainty other than how it fits nicely into your preferred narrative. There is no evidence that DeAtley was interested in Bigfoot or Patterson’s schemes. (His testimony to the contrary is emphatic and forthright, FWIW.)

Heironimus never said Patterson mentioned being funded. His only reason for his suspecting DeAtley’s involvement was DeAtley’s (supposed) receipt of the film he mailed in early March.

One subtle indication that DeAtley wasn’t a pre-PGF funder is this: He didn’t demand to see a film of Bob Heironimus doing his practice walk, as he likely would have if he’d been looking at spending $1000 for Heironimus’s services, and another $1000 for Patterson’s expedition.

Heironimus didn’t describe any filming, or even still photography, of his practice-walks at Patterson’s place, either in Long’s book (e.g., TMoB, pp. 344–45) or in any of his interviews. Presumably he would have if it had happened—he could hardly have missed seeing the filmer or dismissed his presence as not worth mentioning. He noticed and mentioned that Patty Patterson was watching through a kitchen window. (She could have been the filmer if one was wanted—or Gimlin, who was also in attendance.)

Such a film is the sort of thing Patterson might have wanted to study for flaws in Bob’s walk. Anyhow, that’s the explanation he could give to Heironimus for the filming.

More to the point, it’s the sort of thing a funder who was in on the hoax would have wanted to study for believability. Think about it. A “witting” funder, as PGF-skeptics and Heironimus have claimed Al DeAtley was, would certainly have asked to see how realistic Heironimus’s “Bigfoot” looked in a trial run. It’s the least he’d ask, especially if he were a hard-ass tightwad like DeAtley.

Can you imagine him—or any “witting” rich man—funding a three-week, three-horse, two-man, far-off movie without asking for a preview of it in a less exotic setting? Why not? Can you imagine him just taking Patterson’s word for it that Heironimus’s walk looked “perfect”?? (Maybe you can, but if so that’s why you’re not a rich man.) If necessary to meet a funder’s demand, he need only have had Heironimus come back for a second practice walk. (In one interview Heironimus said he went to Patterson’s place for a walk “once or twice.”)

Also, could you imagine Patterson not filming the practice-walk if he had no funder yet, but hoped to land one, who might be one who was only in it for the money, like DeAtley? If he really thought the walk was perfect, as Heironimus alleges (below), a film of it would be the selling tool he needed.

The film stock needn’t have been anything expensive or hard to process. It could have been 8mm Ektachrome, which could have been developed in a home darkroom. It could have been shot in an 8mm camera rented for a day for peanuts—or loaned by the funder if he owned one.

According to Heironimus, his trial run satisfied Patterson. (The following is one of several similar quotes.):
Bob Heironimus—I only walked, like I say, two or three times and they said, “That’s perfect. That’s just what we want.”
—Seth Shostak’s “Skeptical Sunday” radio show, section 5-H, 8/1/2004
But if Heironimus had looked as laughable in it as he did in the Cow Camp re-creation attempt, Patterson wouldn’t have got a dime—just a horselaugh.
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Wallace was the owner of the stompers used for the hoaxed tracks at Blue Creek Mountain Rd and Bluff Creek that were used as the reason for Patterson and Gimlin coming to Bluff Creek.
There is some evidence that his stompers match one of the 1958 tracks on the under-construction Bluff Creek Road—a crack in both. But Meldrum makes a good case against most of the 1958 track-hoax claims; see his Sasquatch—Legend Meets Science, pages 60–68. Those pages also discuss and dismiss most (but not all) other footprint-hoax claims, like the 1967 Blue Creek Mountain finds. John Green is quoted on page 68:
“We counted six hundred tracks at Bluff Creek one day in 1967. They showed great variation. The idea that they all could have been made by one carved foot is just nonsense.”
===========
That's the same hoaxer who was collaborating with the managing editor of the Times-Standard Laurence "Scoop" Beal as admitted by his wife after he passed away.
It’s likely that Wallace hoaxed some of the prints that were found in the months preceding Jerry Crew’s arrival at the newspaper with his plaster casts. But that doesn’t mean all of them were. Wallace’s may have been copycat efforts; I’ve read arguments to that effect.
 
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