Bullish on Bernie: The Bernie Sanders 2016 Thread II

[Tony Stark]

Disagree. Obamacare was even a creation of the GOP. It used to be called "Romneycare".

Complete nonsense. Literally EVERY Republican in Congress voted against Obamacare which only passed because the Democrats had a majority in the House and for a short time a supermajority in the Senate.

There is zero chance whatsoever that even a single Republican would vote for Bernie's plan.

As for "Romneycare" that happened in spite of him not because of him. The Massachusetts legislature was mostly made up of Democrats not Republicans and Romney actually vetoed many of the provisions.

Hhmmm. I don't doubt you, but could you point me in the direction of something specific?

How about the literal dozens of times the low life scumbags have tried to take healthcare away from millions of people the past few years.

Right. Trump "can't be trusted", because he keeps changing his position. Hillary "can't be trusted" for the same reason. They both will say anything to get elected. I find it interesting that Democrats can slam Trump for changing his positions so much, but when Hillary does it she is "evolving".

Trump contradicts himself within the same speeches.

I don't see any reason to believe that Trump is lying here, though. During the debates, he distinguished himself from the other candidates by taking a left-leaning position on health care. He's a populist, and his supporters would be very upset if they lost their coverage. The argument is not over whether or not there should be universal healthcare, it's over how it should be implemented. I think Trump's plan is bad, but I don't see any reason to think that Hillary's is any better. Any plan that keeps insurance companies involved is going to be a failure.

Trump's supporters are people who normally vote Republicans. You know the ones who voted dozens of times to take healthcare away from millions of people.

The notion that Hillary and the Republicans are equally bad in healthcare is a complete joke that proves beyond question you have no idea what you are talking about.

As for insurance companies, you know that there are countries that use insurance companies to provide universal coverage with great results, right?

Oh well, then. The Democrats dug their grave by nominating Hillary. They knew she was unpopular. They knew she was under investigation by the FBI. If you nominate an unpopular candidate, you're gonna lose. That's how politics works.

If they wanted my vote, they should've nominated Bernie. Why is this so hard to understand?

Oh yes, because minorities liked Hillary better than Bernie they deserve to be punished with Trump. How very progressive of you!

 

[BobTheCoward]

Here is the conservative origin of the individual mandate.
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/201...nsurance-mandate-has-long-checkered-past.html

Plus the other components
http://www.politifact.com/punditfac...5/ellen-qualls/aca-gop-health-care-plan-1993/

 

[Tony Stark]

Here is the conservative origin of the individual mandate.
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/201...nsurance-mandate-has-long-checkered-past.html

Plus the other components
http://www.politifact.com/punditfac...5/ellen-qualls/aca-gop-health-care-plan-1993/

Why did literally every Republican in Congress vote against Obamacare if they are so in favor of it? Why have they tried literally dozens of times to repeal it, even shutting down the government for 16 days over it?

 

[Axiom_Blade]

Oh yes, because minorities liked Hillary better than Bernie they deserve to be punished with Trump. How very progressive of you!

They're free to vote for whoever they want to. Just like I am.

It's this crazy concept called "Democracy". You know, that one that your party is named after.

 

[Tony Stark]

They're free to vote for whoever they want to. Just like I am.

It's this crazy concept called "Democracy". You know, that one that your party is named after.

Yes, you're free to help put Donald Trump in the White House. But don't pretend that you actually care about the issues and certainly don't complain when he signs whatever right wing bills the Republicans present him with, lets the Heritage Foundation pick at least one and possibly as many as four Supreme Court Justices, appoints a climate change denier as the head of the EPA, ect.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Disagree. Obamacare was even a creation of the GOP. It used to be called "Romneycare"....

You are conflating The Heritage think tank and Romney's state plan with the GOP. As soon as Obama said, this might work, the ACA immediately became as evil as Dante's Inferno to the GOP.

 

[Axiom_Blade]

Complete nonsense. Literally EVERY Republican in Congress voted against Obamacare which only passed because the Democrats had a majority in the House and for a short time a supermajority in the Senate.

There is zero chance whatsoever that even a single Republican would vote for Bernie's plan.

If the rationale for nominating Hillary is that "Bernie can't get anything past the GOP", it doesn't hold water. It would be hard to find somebody who the GOP hates more than Hillary. Yet, somehow, she's not going to have a problem with a Republican-controlled congress? Anything you could say about Bernie in that regard goes double for Hillary.

Yes, you're free to help put Donald Trump in the White House.

I'm helping to put Jill Stein in the White House. It's not my responsibility how other people vote. I can't stop people from voting for Trump, just like I can't stop you from voting for Hillary. At the end of the day, I'm only responsible for one vote: mine. It would be irresponsible for me to vote for somebody who I thought would be a bad president. Unfortunately, I think that both Hillary and Trump would make terrible presidents.

Now, clearly, you think that Hillary is the best pick for president. You're welcome to try changing my mind. But if all you can do is complain about Trump and call the GOP "scum" and "garbage", that's not a very convincing argument.

But don't pretend that you actually care about the issues and certainly don't complain when he signs whatever right wing bills the Republicans present him with, lets the Heritage Foundation pick at least one and possibly as many as four Supreme Court Justices, appoints a climate change denier as the head of the EPA, ect.

So, if my candidate doesn't win, I don't get to complain about the president? Can I hold you to that? If Hillary loses, and Trump wins, you can't complain about Trump?

 

[Foolmewunz]

If the rationale for nominating Hillary is that "Bernie can't get anything past the GOP", it doesn't hold water. It would be hard to find somebody who the GOP hates more than Hillary. Yet, somehow, she's not going to have a problem with a Republican-controlled congress? Anything you could say about Bernie in that regard goes double for Hillary.



I'm helping to put Jill Stein in the White House. It's not my responsibility how other people vote. I can't stop people from voting for Trump, just like I can't stop you from voting for Hillary. At the end of the day, I'm only responsible for one vote: mine. It would be irresponsible for me to vote for somebody who I thought would be a bad president. Unfortunately, I think that both Hillary and Trump would make terrible presidents.

Now, clearly, you think that Hillary is the best pick for president. You're welcome to try changing my mind. But if all you can do is complain about Trump and call the GOP "scum" and "garbage", that's not a very convincing argument.



So, if my candidate doesn't win, I don't get to complain about the president? Can I hold you to that? If Hillary loses, and Trump wins, you can't complain about Trump?

You're helping to put Jill Stein in the White House, are you? Thus ends any semblance of rational conversation.

 

[Tony Stark]

If the rationale for nominating Hillary is that "Bernie can't get anything past the GOP", it doesn't hold water. It would be hard to find somebody who the GOP hates more than Hillary. Yet, somehow, she's not going to have a problem with a Republican-controlled congress? Anything you could say about Bernie in that regard goes double for Hillary.

The GOP trash wouldn't work with either of them. That's why the ridiculous purity stuff is especially stupid.

I'm helping to put Jill Stein in the White House. It's not my responsibility how other people vote. I can't stop people from voting for Trump, just like I can't stop you from voting for Hillary. At the end of the day, I'm only responsible for one vote: mine. It would be irresponsible for me to vote for somebody who I thought would be a bad president. Unfortunately, I think that both Hillary and Trump would make terrible presidents.

Now, clearly, you think that Hillary is the best pick for president. You're welcome to try changing my mind. But if all you can do is complain about Trump and call the GOP "scum" and "garbage", that's not a very convincing argument.

Jill Stein has literally no chance whatsoever of becoming President. Like I have the same chance and I am not even old enough.

The only thing that you people might conceivably "achieve" is putting Trump in the White House. You know like how Dubya would not have won it not for Nader.

So, if my candidate doesn't win, I don't get to complain about the president? Can I hold you to that? If Hillary doesn't win, you can't complain about Trump?

Your candidate definitely will not win. While I'm the one voting for someone who can win and is without any doubt whatsoever way to the left of Trump.

 

[acbytesla]

You are conflating The Heritage think tank and Romney's state plan with the GOP. As soon as Obama said, this might work, the ACA immediately became as evil as Dante's Inferno to the GOP.

The Affordable Care Act is pretty much a derivative of Romney's health insurance plan and yes the plan was originally a plan conceived by the Heritage Foundation. Obama never named it Obamacare. That was what the Republicans derogatory moniker for the bill.

The Democrats basically reminded the world of its origin. I always found it amusing in 2012 that Romney ran against his own plan. His argument against it was that it should be a state choice.

 

[Axiom_Blade]

The GOP trash wouldn't work with either of them. That's why the ridiculous purity stuff is especially stupid.

If they won't work with either one, why not vote on principle?

Jill Stein has literally no chance whatsoever of becoming President. Like I have the same chance and I am not even old enough.

You are on literally zero ballots. Jill is on literally 20 (at present).

The only thing that you people might conceivably "achieve" is putting Trump in the White House. You know like how Dubya would not have won it not for Nader.

Was that supposed to burn? Because I'm glad Gore lost. The problem with that election is that we allowed ourselves to get bullied by the Democrats into abandoning Nader.

You're candidate definitely will not win. While I'm the one voting for someone who can win, and is without any doubt whatsoever way to the left of Trump.

Admittedly, the odds are long, because the deck is stacked against us, but we can win if we get enough votes, just like any other candidate.

 

[BobTheCoward]

Why did literally every Republican in Congress vote against Obamacare if they are so in favor of it? Why have they tried literally dozens of times to repeal it, even shutting down the government for 16 days over it?

Hard to say. They do not tend to answer this question when asked. The most direct answer I have ever heard was....times change.

 

[d4m10n]

Was that supposed to burn? Because I'm glad Gore lost. The problem with that election is that we allowed ourselves to get bullied by the Democrats into abandoning Nader.

Not so much in FL.


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[Tony Stark]

If they won't work with either one, why not vote on principle?

I don't have any problem with most of the people who voted for Bernie. I was one of them. I have a problem with the crazed Bernie or Bust dumbasses.

You are on literally zero ballots. Jill is on literally 20 (at present).

Jill stands literally zero chance at winning even a single state much less the majority of electoral votes.

Was that supposed to burn? Because I'm glad Gore lost. The problem with that election is that we allowed ourselves to get bullied by the Democrats into abandoning Nader.

You presumably claim to care about the environment and war yet you're glad that Dubya was President for eight years instead of Gore? How laughable. Thanks for proving what I already suspected: Greens are highly irrational fanatics who don't care about reality.

Admittedly, the odds are long, because the deck is stacked against us, but we can win if we get enough votes, just like any other candidate.

You're a small fringe party that stands no chance whatsoever of getting the majority of electoral votes.

 

[acbytesla]

If the rationale for nominating Hillary is that "Bernie can't get anything past the GOP", it doesn't hold water. It would be hard to find somebody who the GOP hates more than Hillary. Yet, somehow, she's not going to have a problem with a Republican-controlled congress? Anything you could say about Bernie in that regard goes double for Hillary.

I hate to tell you this since you're so convinced, but this isn't true. Hillary is actually well liked on both sides of the aisle. You're mixing up campaign politics and governing. They truly are very different things. Hillary is downright hated by people who listen to fox news and right wing radio. She's a devil out here but DEFINITELY NOT in the Senate.

I'm helping to put Jill Stein in the White House. It's not my responsibility how other people vote. I can't stop people from voting for Trump, just like I can't stop you from voting for Hillary. At the end of the day, I'm only responsible for one vote: mine. It would be irresponsible for me to vote for somebody who I thought would be a bad president. Unfortunately, I think that both Hillary and Trump would make terrible presidents.

Now, clearly, you think that Hillary is the best pick for president. You're welcome to try changing my mind. But if all you can do is complain about Trump and call the GOP "scum" and "garbage", that's not a very convincing argument.

So, if my candidate doesn't win, I don't get to complain about the president? Can I hold you to that? If Hillary loses, and Trump wins, you can't complain about Trump?

I would NEVER EVER suggest you don't have a right to cast your vote for whatever candidate you choose.

Hillary is not as liberal a candidate as I would like. I supported Bernie Sanders in the State Caucus. But unlike you (I'm guessing) I've worked in politics. I know that anything good involves compromise and hard work. I've been working for Universal Health Insurance for going on 30 years. I saw up close how hard Hillary worked as first lady to get that Health insurance passed. She came up short, just like we did in the 70s. But she has done more to help children and working families than Jill Stein ever will.

I respect Jill Stein and what she is working for and that is why come November I'm voting for Hillary Clinton. Jill Stein has never won an election. She's a 5 time loser and come November she's going to be a 6 time loser. She has ZERO experience in government She has ZERO chance of winning this election. The only thing she can possibly accomplish and even that is unlikely is to help the Republicans elect a President in the same way that Ralph Nader's candidacy led to George W. Bush becoming President in 2000.

If that is what you want, by all means give her your support. Me I'd rather see lots of people's lives improve a little than not at all.

 

[Foolmewunz]

The Stein folly is okay by me, when it gets down to election day and you're sitting in, say Marin County or Manhattan Island. Cast your symbolic vote. Feel better. Anyone claiming to be a progressive in a swing state who considers doing so, though, should have their head examined.

The thinking is the product of armchair revolutionaries: Might as well elect a demi-fascist demagogue as they're all too far right for my pure tastes. This just isn't true. A Trump win would no doubt be accompanied by GOP majorities in both houses. You already have Congress Critters and Senators who allow conservative "think" tanks to write their legislation.

The current GOP is nothing short of misanthropic. They could do irreparable harm in one term to progressive measures that have been fought for over the past century. And being able to nominate and confirm a minimum of two, possibly four supreme court justices would mean that the right-wing activist judiciary of Scalia will be remembered fondly as "the reasonable years", and the Supremes would be locked into a conservative mindset for a generation.

 

[Tony Stark]

The Stein folly is okay by me, when it gets down to election day and you're sitting in, say Marin County or Manhattan Island. Cast your symbolic vote. Feel better. Anyone claiming to be a progressive in a swing state who considers doing so, though, should have their head examined.

The thinking is the product of armchair revolutionaries: Might as well elect a demi-fascist demagogue as they're all too far right for my pure tastes. This just isn't true. A Trump win would no doubt be accompanied by GOP majorities in both houses. You already have Congress Critters and Senators who allow conservative "think" tanks to write their legislation.

The current GOP is nothing short of misanthropic. They could do irreparable harm in one term to progressive measures that have been fought for over the past century. And being able to nominate and confirm a minimum of two, possibly four supreme court justices would mean that the right-wing activist judiciary of Scalia will be remembered fondly as "the reasonable years", and the Supremes would be locked into a conservative mindset for a generation.

Who cares if the Heritage Foundation gets to pick as many as four Supreme Court Justices as long as I get to keep my ideological purity?

 

[Belz...]

That was beautiful.

 

[wareyin]

I believe, in psychology, they call this "projecting".

You are just as correct in this as you are in your opinion that Stein has a chance to win the presidency. For examples that you will ignore, see Karl Rove and Trump supporting and promoting Sanders during the primary. Also, see long time conservative posters like 16.5 and theprestige claiming to be Sanders supporters.

 

[Tony Stark]

You are just as correct in this as you are in your opinion that Stein has a chance to win the presidency. For examples that you will ignore, see Karl Rove and Trump supporting and promoting Sanders during the primary. Also, see long time conservative posters like 16.5 and theprestige claiming to be Sanders supporters.

Yeah, and it is a fact that Republican SuperPACs attacked Hillary from the left (they openly admitted it). Did they do it because they agreed with those attacks? No they did it an extremely dishonest attempt to convince fanatical morons on the left that Hillary is practically a Republican.