Brexit: the referendum

Archie Gemmill Goal said:
That didn't really answer the question. Did it?

If people are genuinely and validly concerned for public services then why did they elect a Tory government?
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I don't know. I never voted for them.

How could they be persuaded out of concerns about population density?
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Why should they be persuaded out of such concerns? Those concerns are reasonable and valid.

The question you and other Remainers should answer is why you are unconcerned about unrestricted migration? What do you think would be a reasonable level of migration and for how long? Scotland has room perhaps for lots more migrants, but what further increase in population density do you think would be good for England and Wales?
 
ceptimus said:
The concerns about increased pressure on public services and the other downsides of increased population density are reasonable and valid.

If net migration continues to run at a quarter of a million or more for the next twenty years or so that's a further increase in our population of another 7% or so - not really an issue to just be swept under the carpet as though it doesn't matter.
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Another 7% of largely healthy young people who are overall net contributors to the government. Increased pressure on the NHS isn't due to the likes of Kris, Trine, Hester or any of the dozens of EU-originating friends and acquaintances I have. They are tax payers (and several work in the NHS) who require comparatively little in the way of NHS services. It's down to people like my Dad who are "worried well" in their 80's and absorbing NHS resources at a hell of a rate. We need the Krises, Trines and Hesters to provide the funding for (and the labour for) his NHS services.

Likewise with schools. People make it sound bad that there's increased demand for school places but IMO better that than the situation in the 1980s when school rolls were falling and there were school closures left right and centre. Again, the immigrants are providing the tax revenue so as long as the government provides proper funding
 
Captain_Swoop said:
Pressure on public services is coming from the Tory Government not immigration.
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I agree that the Tory Government is putting pressure on public services.

The last two words of your post are wrong though: it's obvious that increased population also increases the pressure on public services.
 
Information Analyst said:
I'm wondering if there's anyway I can legitimise my grandmother's birth to a father from Cork, and thus claim Irish nationality...?
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Sadly Finland only accepts naturalisation thingies if your Dad was Finnish...in my case it was my Mum.

The Don said:
What no-one seems to point out - and I guess it's symptomatic of our insular view here in the UK - is that post-Brexit, UK citizens will find it so much harder to work, study, live and retire abroad but again the message from the Brexit campaign is our ability to to those will continue unabated (because of our awesome negotiation skills) but we'll always be able keep out Johnny Foreigner.
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As an IT contractor I'm at the level where the sort of UK contractors returning to the country (even temporarily) while work permits etc are thrashed out will be after the same roles as me. Which will not have a nice effect on rates.
 
ceptimus said:
Why should they be persuaded out of such concerns? Those concerns are reasonable and valid.
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Because you said the correct approach was to persuade them out of their concerns not to ignore them. If you don't think they should be persuaded out of their concerns then should we just accept them and act upon them regardless even if we disagree with them?
 
I notice you didn't answer my questions.

I would like net migration to be below 100,000 per year. Tell me what you think is a reasonable target and we can maybe reach a compromise figure. Then we can discuss the best way to achieve it.
 
ceptimus said:
I notice you didn't answer my questions.

I would like net migration to be below 100,000 per year. Tell me what you think is a reasonable target and we can maybe reach a compromise figure. Then we can discuss the best way to achieve it.
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I was waiting for you to answer mine.

I don't have a target for immigration. The more the merrier is my usual attitude to it.
 
Archie Gemmill Goal said:
I was waiting for you to answer mine.

I don't have a target for immigration. The more the merrier is my usual attitude to it.
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An absurd position: ten million a year would be okay for you? Unless you are able to specify a reasonable target then there's no point discussing with you further.
 
ceptimus said:
An absurd position: ten million a year would be okay for you? Unless you are able to specify a reasonable target then there's no point discussing with you further.
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No an absurd position would be pulling numbers out of my backside based on nothing.

I'm happy with current arrangements with respect to the EU. Completely free movement of people across the Union. I have no burning desire to deny anyone access to the UK.

If I thought people were genuinely concerned about public services and population density I would be interested in having a conversation about how these things could be better addressed. That does not necessarily mean stopping immigration and the fact that that's the ONLY topic people want to talk about demonstrates their dishonesty in pretending that the issue is public services or population density.

Let's also have the difficult conversation with all these old folks shouting about the country being full about how they expect to have their pensions paid by the state without an influx of working age immigrants to make up the shortfall? Are they prepared to do their bit and take a cut? No, didn't think so.
 
Archie Gemmill Goal said:
The immigration system right now is a mess and the main reason for it is the anti-immigration rabble rousers demanding that the government does something about it.

I know quite a few UK citizens with foreign spouses and families who are now unable to return to the UK because the immigration rules make it more or less impossible for them to come back without an employer sponsoring them or a huge chunk of cash.
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QFT.

Where are the amazing pressure on facilities that immigrants are causing? Damn them coming over and working in our hospitals.

I understand there are a lot in the agricultural sector in Linconshire, for example - doing jobs that Brits tend to not want to do.

Archie Gemmill Goal said:
Why not? We have immigration controls on non-EU people. Why not make them points based? Why not let in the engineers, doctors, nurses and teachers Bojo and Dyson are moaning about?
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Indeed, we have had great problems getting engineers where I worked and about half my closest colleagues are immigrants, mainly from the EU, but also outside it. We have had to wait a long time for visa clearances for several that we really wanted because we'd worked with them previously. They all have at least doctorates, as well as relevant experience.



Captain_Swoop said:
Pressure on public services is coming from the Tory Government not immigration.
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Bingo. It's almost funny. Make such a fuss about immigration that people think it is a problem, and blame it for damaging the very services it keeps running.
 
I saw the Leave Campaign referendum broadcast on BBC1 earlier; it was the most ridiculous piece of propaganda I've ever seen. I almost thought I was watching FOX News for a minute.

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ceptimus said:
The current system means that economic migrants from Poland and similar come to our country in unrestricted numbers and take jobs as baristas, waiters, shelf-stackers and the like: meanwhile our government, in order to keep the net migration figure as low as they can, is making it very difficult for skilled people from the rest of the world to enter - and they are ejecting family members of non-EU migrants in a cruel and heartless way.
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I have a Polish friend who is now a manager with Royal Mail. I have a Romanian friend who is a GP. I work with scientists and analysts from all over the EU. I bet that messes with your preconceptions a bit.
 
Mid said:
No they're leading by complete lying, banging on about immigration and funky retro 1970's economic modelling by Patrick Minford
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The irony is, of course, that the re-entrenchment of dynastic privilege we've witnessed since the 70's is not at all what the Blessed Margaret intended when she launched the revolution.
 
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