Brexit: the referendum

[malbec]

Predictions backed by facts.

And you call me a CT .
I have been pointing out to you consistently that it is this type of remark that defines the new breed of CT .
It is nice that you strongly hold opinions . But writing about them in that way smacks of Bush and Bliar .

 

[The Don]

Labour MPs mostly exist in the Westminster bubble and don't listen to what their supporters are telling them.

When working people tell their Labour MP that their biggest concern is migration from the EU taking their jobs, houses, and so on, all the MP can do is try to hand-wave it away.

It's telling that the left wing of the party - people like Dennis Skinner - are supporting the Leave side. The late left-winger, Tony Benn, was on the 'leave' side even during the previous referendum. I suspect that Corbyn would be supporting Leave too if he hadn't been elected leader and been presured by his MPs and Union leaders to support Remain. He's been pretty half-hearted in his support for Remain so far...

...and they call the remain campaign "project fear"

 

[Wudang]

Meanwhile, it seems The Sun is about to come out in favour of 'leave'.

The Guardian

Hardly a suprise.

I once asked Rupert Murdoch why he was so opposed to the European Union. 'That’s easy,' he replied. 'When I go into Downing Street they do what I say; when I go to Brussels they take no notice.'

Source

From that same source

the words of a leading American trade negotiator discussing the slow progress being made on a trade deal between the US and the EU. It was taking time, he said, because the US was having to learn how to deal with an adversary who was an equal. This was in stark contrast with the way the US deals with individual countries. “Normally we just fax them our terms and tell them to sign.”

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

The Labour party has always had a euro-skeptic minority.

It's interesting that whilst one of the reasons why Brexiters want to leave the EU is that EU protection of workers is too onerous and places us at a competitive disadvantage (presumably to our "natural" competition, the recently industrialised nations of the developing world ), Jeremy Corbyn's historic and well publicised opposition to the EU was due to the fact that he felt that the EU was too corporatist and did not provide sufficient protection for workers. I can understand why Jeremy Corbyn has revised his position, a post-Brexit UK would be far worse for workers than a UK in the EU.

Labour Party policy has however been pro-Europe and so the Labour Party officially adopting a "remain" position is hardly surprising and doesn't represent a change of position for the party as a whole.

As the Labour party leader and prospective future Prime Minister, Corbyn should be promising increased protection for workers as part of the Labour manifesto, if he believes in it and thinks it's a vote winner.

It's pretty pathetic for a party that aspires to be in power to have to rely on Mommy EU to implement their policies for them.

And I wouldn't expect the vast majority of Tory voters to favour reduced worker protection either. So if the Tories do introduce such reduced worker rights they harm their own chances of retaining power in future elections.

Two sides of the coin above. To be honest, I've been resigned to Brexit mentally for sometime mostly as I have a complete lack of faith in the British people to make the right decision.

I don't particularly fear Brexit as a thing, in my situation I doubt it will make a huge difference either way. I don't think I would be immediately effected beyond mild inconvenience or at least no worse than I would be by some Westminster decisions I don't agree with either.

What I do fear is what a new reinvigorated right would do with the powers they have won back. And Corbyn too is right to fear that because even he probably knows he's not going to win the next election against Bojo. Don't for a second rely on Tories not to do what they want to do because the past few years repeatedly prove to them that turkeys will vote for Tory Christmas as long as its sold to them the right way. They can just lie and then do it anyway once they are elected and it will all be forgotten come the next election.

One thing I do agree with Brexiters on sadly is when they talk about British values being eroded by the EU. Its true that the EU and British values are not aligned. Because the truth is the core British values that we see on display across the country (and especially in the heart of Little England) are insular, xenophobic, racist, reactionary and obnoxious. Every social gain made has been made by dragging these people kicking and screaming against their will to at least pretend to adopt progressive values but the real truth is they never did. They long for a mythical English past of cricket on the village green, tea and cucumber sandwiches, calling their dog ****** and giving their kids golliwogs to play with then home to watch Jim Davidson on TV and repeats of Alf Garnett.

They think its an affront to British values to see a Polish shop, an Indian takeaway or god forbid a mosque in their towns. They wallow in their own sense of superiority and don't see the irony in invading Spanish beach resorts with their Union Jacks waving, singing songs about German bombers and deriding the local food, culture and way of life before sexually assaulting someone and throwing up on the beach for good measure.

Worse still are the small band of immigrants and their children who have bought into this 'British culture' and now seek to pull up the ladders behind them on their fellow man. Who would rather see other families condemned to poverty, separated, or just face down in the Med than let them share in the benefits that they demand they are entitled to but must be denied to everyone else.

These people decry the rest of the world as lazy scroungers, on the eye to take take take whatever they can get from the hard working English. These foreigners hate us and want to bring us down to their level, you see? We can't afford to help them. The country's full they insist. Why should my quality of life suffer they moan as they settle down to watch SKY TV on their 50" plasma with another case of cheap beer from Tescos only for their accountant to interrupt them with another 'can't lose' tax avoidance scam.

I voted Yes in 2014 to get away from them and the least I can do in 2016 is vote Remain to keep a lid on them. Post Brexit UK in 2019 with PM Boris hardly bears thinking about. Immigration will be the least of their worries. I doubt anyone will want to move here. The bigger question might be how many will want to stick around?

 

[ceptimus]

...and they call the remain campaign "project fear"

Yes they do.

If someone tells you that their biggest concern is immigration you may think that it shouldn't be their biggest concern, and you may try to pursuade them out of that concern.

But it's no use just laughing at them, or just telling them they're wrong, or just changing the subject - those seem to be the three main approaches of the Remain side - and it just serves to alienate those on the Leave side and make them ignore the rest of the arguments that the Remain side is making.

The problem for Remain, of course, is that they know that while we remain in the EU they can do practically nothing about immigration, so they're not able to address those people's biggest concern in any positive way.

 

[The Don]

Yes they do.

If someone tells you that their biggest concern is immigration you may think that it shouldn't be their biggest concern, and you may try to pursuade them out of that concern.

But it's no use just laughing at them, or just telling them they're wrong, or just changing the subject - those seem to be the three main approaches of the Remain side - and it just serves to alienate those on the Leave side and make them ignore the rest of the arguments that the Remain side is making.

The problem for Remain, of course, is that they know that while we remain in the EU they can do practically nothing about immigration, so they're not able to address those people's biggest concern in any positive way.

As opposed to the Brexit lot who can also do little or nothing practically to limit immigration but who are making up all kinds of contradictory stories about what post-Brexit immigration is going to look like.

If they're talking to employers who rely on EU labour then it'll be "business as usual", if they're talking to xenophobic UKIPpers then they're giving assurances that the worthy oriental gentlemen (who begin at Calais) will be kept out and net immigration will be at, or close to, zero.

 

[Information Analyst]

I didn't know Wales was planning to secede from the UK. However there's been a surge of interest in office property in Dublin, Paris and Frankfurt amongst the financial services sector. Just in case the lunatic option is taken.

I'm wondering if there's anyway I can legitimise my grandmother's birth to a father from Cork, and thus claim Irish nationality...?

 

[Information Analyst]

Neither side is looking particularily bright, either, but from what I've learned of EU practices, I'm not surprised that the Brits think the whole thing is now disadvantageous to them.

Considering the amount of disinformation - or outright lies - coming from the Leave side, I wouldn't be so sure of that.

 

[Mid]

I'm wondering if there's anyway I can legitimise my grandmother's birth to a father from Cork, and thus claim Irish nationality...?

I've also been wondering when exactly my mothers part of the family came over from Ireland for claiming nationality reasons

 

[ceptimus]

As opposed to the Brexit lot who can also do little or nothing practically to limit immigration.

Australian-style points based system works for the Australians.

Yes their net migration is, per capita, higher than ours - but that's because they want it to be. The beauty of the points based system is that you work out your points based on what sort of migrants you want - engineers, nurses or whatever - and you then set a net migration target figure that you can actually enforce.

The current system means that economic migrants from Poland and similar come to our country in unrestricted numbers and take jobs as baristas, waiters, shelf-stackers and the like: meanwhile our government, in order to keep the net migration figure as low as they can, is making it very difficult for skilled people from the rest of the world to enter - and they are ejecting family members of non-EU migrants in a cruel and heartless way.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

Yes they do.

If someone tells you that their biggest concern is immigration you may think that it shouldn't be their biggest concern, and you may try to pursuade them out of that concern.

.

What is the right response when presented with the typical anti-immigration small minded idiot then?

They won't listen to reason to be persuaded out of their view because the only thing their view is based on is that Johnny Foreigner should bugger off back to Johnny Foreigner land.

So either you dismiss their concern or you accede to them. Compromise with idiots just makes us all a bit more closer to stupidity.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

Australian-style points based system works for the Australians.

Yes their net migration is, per capita, higher than ours - but that's because they want it to be. The beauty of the points based system is that you work out your points based on what sort of migrants you want - engineers, nurses or whatever - and you then set a net migration target figure that you can actually enforce.

The current system means that economic migrants from Poland and similar come to our country in unrestricted numbers and take jobs as baristas, waiters, shelf-stackers and the like: meanwhile our government, in order to keep the net migration figure as low as they can, is making it very difficult for skilled people from the rest of the world to enter - and they are ejecting family members of non-EU migrants in a cruel and heartless way.

If a points-based immigration system is the answer, why don't we have one? Nobody has stopped us doing it in the past ... ever.

 

[The Don]

Australian-style points based system works for the Australians.

Oh, there are systems they can put in place, but practically there is little they can do. Close to 50% of net migration is from non-EU countries fueled presumably by a demand for labour. Those "little-England" Brexiters who are hoping that the day after the Brexit vote, the shutters are going to come down and those horrible foreigners are going to be sent packing are going to be sadly disappointed.

The Brexit campaign has been assuring employers who rely on overseas labour that they'll continue to be able to get it.

In fact as far as I can see, the only people the Brexiters will be able to exclude are those people like my friend Kris who came across from Poland about 15 years ago with no clear idea about what he wanted to do and who now has a thriving building business which employs a couple of dozen, mostly British, workers.

What no-one seems to point out - and I guess it's symptomatic of our insular view here in the UK - is that post-Brexit, UK citizens will find it so much harder to work, study, live and retire abroad but again the message from the Brexit campaign is our ability to to those will continue unabated (because of our awesome negotiation skills) but we'll always be able keep out Johnny Foreigner.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

Oh, there are systems they can put in place, but practically there is little they can do. Close to 50% of net migration is from non-EU countries fueled presumably by a demand for labour. Those "little-England" Brexiters who are hoping that the day after the Brexit vote, the shutters are going to come down and those horrible foreigners are going to be sent packing are going to be sadly disappointed.

The immigration system right now is a mess and the main reason for it is the anti-immigration rabble rousers demanding that the government does something about it.

I know quite a few UK citizens with foreign spouses and families who are now unable to return to the UK because the immigration rules make it more or less impossible for them to come back without an employer sponsoring them or a huge chunk of cash.

 

[ceptimus]

If a points-based immigration system is the answer, why don't we have one? Nobody has stopped us doing it in the past ... ever.

There's no point while we have unrestricted access from EU countries.

 

[The Don]

There's no point while we have unrestricted access from EU countries.

Why not ? It would - as it stands - cover 50% of net migration

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

There's no point while we have unrestricted access from EU countries.

Why not? We have immigration controls on non-EU people. Why not make them points based? Why not let in the engineers, doctors, nurses and teachers Bojo and Dyson are moaning about?

 

[ceptimus]

What is the right response when presented with the typical anti-immigration small minded idiot then?

They won't listen to reason to be persuaded out of their view because the only thing their view is based on is that Johnny Foreigner should bugger off back to Johnny Foreigner land.

So either you dismiss their concern or you accede to them. Compromise with idiots just makes us all a bit more closer to stupidity.

The concerns about increased pressure on public services and the other downsides of increased population density are reasonable and valid.

If net migration continues to run at a quarter of a million or more for the next twenty years or so that's a further increase in our population of another 7% or so - not really an issue to just be swept under the carpet as though it doesn't matter.

 

[ceptimus]

Why not? We have immigration controls on non-EU people. Why not make them points based? Why not let in the engineers, doctors, nurses and teachers Bojo and Dyson are moaning about?

It will be much fairer if the points system applies equally to ALL migrants.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

The concerns about increased pressure on public services and the other downsides of increased population density are reasonable and valid.

If net migration continues to run at a quarter of a million or more for the next twenty years or so that's a further increase in our population of another 7% or so - not really an issue to just be swept under the carpet as though it doesn't matter.

That didn't really answer the question. Did it?

If people are genuinely and validly concerned for public services then why did they elect a Tory government?

How could they be persuaded out of concerns about population density?

It will be much fairer if the points system applies equally to ALL migrants.

That didn't really answer the question either.