God's purpose

[Rincewind]

A biography of God?

It doesn't take much to get a Pulitzer anymore, does it.

The Autobiography would be better...

 

[quadraginta]

<snip>

Religion will get a boost and mankind will try to live cooperatively together (for while at least). Religions will have to re-examine their belief systems in order to achieve such order. Those that do not may die out.

Watch this space...organised religion refraining from organising what people should believe? Priceless.

<snip>

Lyrics from an early Steppenwolf song, written by John Kay;

Humanity grew weary
Of it's doubtful state of mind
So it summoned from far and called from near
All the wise men thought to be sincere
To heal it's wounds and make it whole
And the lead the way back to the soul

The charlatans they stayed behind
To count their bags of gold
And some stayed away as if to say
I know that my way's the only way
Afraid to learn they may be wrong
They preach their nothingness at home

But the wise men came together with the hope to free man kind
Of the rubbish that had gathered in god's name
To embrace and trust each other in the search for the supreme
And they found that all their teachings were the same

And when at last the word went round
That all were one and all
Many returned to seek the light
Nobody claimed that he was right
It's sad to know it's just a song
To dream and hope still can't be wrong

The punchline is the song title ...

"Spiritual Fantasy".

Emphasis on "fantasy".


Here's the song as performed by Steppenwolf. For anyone who's interested.

 

[quadraginta]

Ask your pastor if I'm making any sense.

Asking my pastor too much inconvenient stuff is what got me invited to leave a bible summer camp when I was thirteen. One which I was otherwise doing well enough at that they had already promised me a free week the next year.

A promise which they reneged on. They gave me a bible instead. (Like I didn't already have a few. I asked for the cash equivalent of the week at camp. They didn't like that idea. )

He told me my questions were "confusing" the other campers. What I learned from that is that believers shouldn't mention the inconvenient stuff.

I see nothing has changed.

 

[quadraginta]

If he came down and sat on your shoulder while handing you his book, you would still throw it back in his face while yelling some sort of profanity.

If anyone dropped down on my shoulder and started brandishing some heavy object in my face then profanity would be the very least that would result.

Understand now?

Do you?

 

[quadraginta]

Why not?
He has clearly created a lot, why not life as we know it?


<snip>

Assumes facts not in evidence.

You need to start off with the evidence that he created anything at all.

Show us what ya got.

 

[quadraginta]

Do you think human's have a conscience?

Do you think that apostrophe belongs where you put it?

Ask your pastor.

(If he says yes then you know not to put much faith in anything he tells you.)

 

[Magrat]

Ah. I happen to be unecumbered. I own my home outright. That said, I spend a small fortune on my kids, and glad I am to do it.

Nevertheless, the hex-wife resents it. Why? I have no idea. Even my girlies roll there eyes in despair.

Us actual active fatherly parents simply don't get the fair end of the judicial stick.

That's my other issue. I want him to be able to spend as much time with the kids as possible, not having to be working over time every day or whatever. My kids will both be done with high school in 4 years, then it is up to him to sort out their relationship. I'm just focusing on getting them to that point.

 

[Magrat]

Ninja'd by a rogue kitten!

Excellent post. You are correct about empathy being the real instinct that we manifest when we exercise our minds with what we call having a conscience.

And you ninja'd me again at the end there!

Clearly we are both great minds

 

[Magrat]

Because God chose to imbue his creation with free will, of course. I'll ignore the sarcasm in the second part of your post

So god (any one of them) was vague on what we are supposed to do, contradicted him/her/itself in the "instruction manual", told different groups of people different stuff, gave us all a 'free will' and an "inherently sinful nature" that would desire to do the exact opposite, and promised to send us to eternal hell if we don't follow his/her/its instructions to the letter. Sounds like a fun guy/girl/thing.

 

[SusanB-M1]

Wow an incredible statement. Of course I would say the exact opposite, Christians are instrumental in organizing around the world doing good things for people.

As far as people losing their conscience, it's usually referred to as being seared conscience. Resulting from a life of constantly violating the inner conscience of that person. I've known people who have done that and the same people who were able to rebuild it.

Conscience is simply a group of symbols forming a two-syllable word to label a feeling which surely must have originated from the altruistic behaviour of humans which enabled them to survive successfully. Those without that behaviour were not numerous enough to prevent our successful survival.

 

[Magrat]

Wow an incredible statement. Of course I would say the exact opposite, Christians are instrumental in organizing around the world doing good things for people.
As far as people losing their conscience, it's usually referred to as being seared conscience. Resulting from a life of constantly violating the inner conscience of that person. I've known people who have done that and the same people who were able to rebuild it.

Maybe today, in some places. In the past 2000 years Christians have killed millions of people for not beleiving the 'right way', not to mention oppressing millions, stalling and actively preventing science and medicine from moving past Aristotle, keeping misogyny and a class based society in place by force, and today intentionally preventing the use of condoms to stop the spread of aids. More suffering has been created by religion, and Christianity in particular, than any other cause.

As for the second part of your post, nobody referred to "losing" a conscious. Psychopaths and sociopaths never had one. Meaning they lack empathy. It can't be "rebuilt". So god missed them, or, "conscience" isn't from "him".

 

[The Big Dog]

So god (any one of them) was vague on what we are supposed to do, contradicted him/her/itself in the "instruction manual", told different groups of people different stuff, gave us all a 'free will' and an "inherently sinful nature" that would desire to do the exact opposite, and promised to send us to eternal hell if we don't follow his/her/its instructions to the letter. Sounds like a fun guy/girl/thing.

Rule of so! Excellent.

 

[Magrat]

Rule of so! Excellent.

If you'd like to correct it, feel free. But this response is both irrelevant and unhelpful.

 

[PartSkeptic]

If God wanted me to believe that he exists, he would know exactly how to infallibly ensure I did.

Ergo, either God doesn't exist, or if he does, he wants me to be an atheist.

Good reasoning, but perhaps you are not considering the free will part. Maybe God does not mind which belief you choose, as long as you are a moral person who, on the whole, tries to do constructive deeds which help others or society.

There may be some people that he decides he will "arrange" events so that the person comes to believe he does exist. Rather than simply rearrange your brain cells so that you do believe, or appear before you, he lets you choose. Some people may decide that their senses have been temporarily scrambled and reject any notion of the supernatural.

I decided there is a decent possibility he exists, but that I will always have an element of doubt. I just feel I cannot trust my own senses, and even if God did a few miracles in row, and chatted face to face, I will always be doubtful.

I do not think he minds. And I do not think he needs me to bow down and worship him. Only to show some respect and appreciation.

 

[The Big Dog]

If you'd like to correct it, feel free. But this response is both irrelevant and unhelpful.

Pointing out fallacious reasoning (such as yours) is ALWAYS relevant and helpful.

 

[Jrrarglblarg]

His mother just called it "His special purpose."

While buckling on His foam helmet.


Anyway, what God? Which God? Whose god? When? Why should any god or God have any purpose or reason at all for creating Stuff? Are people really afraid of living in a pointless, purposeless universe that has no apparent reason to exist in the first place? I find that part the most exciting - my very existence is DESPITE the best efforts of the Universe.

 

[Magrat]

Pointing out fallacious reasoning (such as yours) is ALWAYS relevant and helpful.

If you'd like to correct what I said with facts or evidence feel free. Claiming my "reasoning" is fallacious without any other supporting text is not helpful, it is like ringing a doorbell and hiding in the bushes.

Also, there wasn't any "reasoning", I repeated what has been stated in this thread and others about Christianity and God's "design".

If you can't "correct" my post with any substantiation then we are all free to disregard what you've said.

 

[The Big Dog]

If you'd like to correct what I said with facts or evidence feel free. Claiming my "reasoning" is fallacious without any other supporting text is not helpful, it is like ringing a doorbell and hiding in the bushes.

Also, there wasn't any "reasoning", I repeated what has been stated in this thread and others about Christianity and God's "design".

If you can't "correct" my post with any substantiation then we are all free to disregard what you've said.

The Rule of So is a commonly used description of a all to typical fallacy whereby one strawmans a post with an off topic rant, such as here.

In this case the topic is God's purpose.

Paul said, "God is the one who, for his good purpose, works in you both to desire and to work"

 

[Giordano]

Good reasoning, but perhaps you are not considering the free will part. Maybe God does not mind which belief you choose, as long as you are a moral person who, on the whole, tries to do constructive deeds which help others or society.

There may be some people that he decides he will "arrange" events so that the person comes to believe he does exist. Rather than simply rearrange your brain cells so that you do believe, or appear before you, he lets you choose. Some people may decide that their senses have been temporarily scrambled and reject any notion of the supernatural.

I decided there is a decent possibility he exists, but that I will always have an element of doubt. I just feel I cannot trust my own senses, and even if God did a few miracles in row, and chatted face to face, I will always be doubtful.

I do not think he minds. And I do not think he needs me to bow down and worship him. Only to show some respect and appreciation.

The argument of "free will" is very amusing to me (and I realize that you are shading this away from a strict Fire and Brimstone fundamentalist discussion).

1. The argument reeks of pitiful desperation to try to explain why an all powerful and good God would create evil in this word. "Um, maybe He doesn't wish to impose a moral choice on people, which would ruin his purpose for us!"

2. Why is this the purpose anyway? If one believes in God, then God has already limited us in that we cannot flap our wings and fly. He has limited us in that we can't manipulate facts as fast as a modern computer. He has limited us in our ability to protect our children against physical harm. He has limited us in our ability to oppose powerful, evil men even if a majority of the population is suffering and against a dictator- look at North Korea today. But when it comes to moral choices He instead actually likes to tempt us to make the wrong choice, and bets with Satan as to our choice (if you believe the Bible). Sure- He is willing to kill many, many thousands or millions in earthquakes, Tsunamis, fires, hurricanes, and tornados, but He would never want to interfere in our lives- a moral Prime Directive as it were.

3. How is it "free choice" if we have been informed that making the wrong choice results in immediate punishment and/or everlasting Hell? In fact even on Earth and in almost all cases no one can make another person do anything they don't want to do: they can only make the alternative exceedingly unpleasant. How is this any different from the "free will" of God? "Do whatever you want! You are free! If you choose wrong I will put in in a horrible place for all eternity and you will suffer forever. But make whatever choice you wish- you have free will!"

The more sophisticated (True Christian?) theologians will argue that Hell is not a place of suffering, it is just a place removed from God- in essence if you reject Him, He does not want you around. But clearly even in this toned down version of fire and brimstone preaching the concept of Hell is still meant to be horrible and undesirable.

Finally the argument that God doesn't need us to bow down and worship Him. That is not how the Ten Commandments, let alone the remainder of the Bible, read to me.

 

[Giordano]

If you'd like to correct it, feel free. But this response is both irrelevant and unhelpful.

16.5 often uses the "rule of so" to dismiss other people's posts without responding to any of the post itself. Oddly, I find that if I compose a post that happens to have the word "so" in it, and then just delete the word "so" before I post it, I have to deal a lot less will these silly exchanges.

Straw man is also a popular exclamation that "allows" a post to be dismissed without discussing any of the actual arguments in it...

[edited]: oh- would you look at that! There it is: the "strawman" dismissal. I hadn't seen it before I posted this. Warned you!