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Continuation Part 21: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

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Read the question carefully. Question 1 is, was Amanda given redress for her complaints and did she exhaust the avenues? If the answer is 'Yes' only then can Question 2 be entertained. AIUI Amanda did not file a complaint against the police and nor did she obtain a medical report to substantiate the slapping allegation.

With all due respect, Vixen, I'll leave it to others to interpret this for those of us way up in the bleachers. I'm still trying to figure out why you think it is all right to claim someone was 6' 7" when they clearly were not.
 
Seems to me that there's a good chance that Italy just rolls over on this whole thing and reaches a settlement with Knox. They already threw the police and prosecution under the bus, anyway.

Could be; the response to the ECHR will be from the Ministry of Justice, not from the Italian courts.
 
To those who wonder what I think, and whether I believe I am right, the answer is yes, I absolutely know I am right.
My quick answers to the court's "questions" ( :) ) are those below:


1. The applicant has she exhausted the domestic remedies available to him to complain about the violation of Article 3 of the Convention, concerning the steps (scappellotti) allegedly suffered, and Articles 6 §§ 1 and 3 a), c) and e) and 8 of the Convention?



No.
In fact, the applicant did not even initiate the process to seek a remedy through Italian law.
The point is particularly relevant not only because of the obvious status of inadmissibility of the application before the ECHR (no domestic remedy was attampted), but also as for its probative value as for assessing the credibility of the version of facts provided by the applicant.

This is because of the following legal provisions under Italian law: a) the crimes of beating (cp 581), or physical violence or threat (cp. 610-612) require the victim to file a complaint in order to allow prosecution of the charge, otherwise investigation cannot initiate; b) the Ethics Code of lawyers requires a defence attorney to file a charge if he/she collects a claim by a client under detention, and to properly inform the client about the necessity to file a complaint; c) if a lawyer is informed by a client under detention that the same client suffered a violence or offence by authorities, and does not take proper legal steps, the lawyer would commit an extremely serious criminal offence called "infedele patrocinio" (betrayal of the interest of clint) besides breaching the Ethics Code; d) a defence attorney is also required to object any irregularity of breach of the code that could be suffered by the client, namely, in the particular case, if the applicants current claims had been made at the time, the lawyers shoud have denounced the breach of Procedure Code claiming that a prosecution interrogation had taken place (thus, that would mean breaching the Procedure code that prevents prosecution from questioning a suspect prior to his/her appearence before a judge), but the defence attorney never raised such claim.

Therefore, the failure to initiate procedure for domestic remedy by the applicant on this claim, not only causes the request to be inadmissible on this point, but also undermines any possible credibility of the claim itself.




2. If so:


a) Does the applicant have been submitted, in breach of Article 3 of the Convention, inhuman or degrading treatment?



It is impossible to know for certain whether she received a slap at the back of her head, while it is impossible to prove it. There is actually no element of evidence in support of that besides the applicant's writing, while there are elements that indicate the opposite, that is: the defences' failure to make the necessary step for complain and initiate a process to investigate the claim; the testimony of interpreter Anna Donnino who was present at the police interrogation, a reliable witness who denies any mistreatment ever took place in her presence.



b) The applicant she has, as required by Article 6 § 3 a) of the Convention, was informed in promptly, in a language they understand and in detail, of the nature and cause of the charge against him for false accusation?



Yes, the charge for false accusation anyway was issued much later. She was not a suspect for that crime at the time of the interrogation nor in the following days.


c) Does the applicant have had the assistance of counsel of his choice, as required by Article 6 § 3 c) of the Convention, especially during interrogation of 6 November 2007?



No interrogation took place on 6 November 2007 (except the police questioning that ended at 01.45 am).
Had interrogation taken place later that day, it would have been illegal. Knox's defence should have rised a complaint to the court immediately if that happened. They never raised such claim.


d) Has the applicant obtained the free assistance of an interpreter, within the meaning of Article 6 § 3 e) of the Convention?


Yes, she had an interpreter, but the applicant was not suspected of that charge at the time, and was not undergoing an interrogation, but only a police questioning which is inadmissible as testimony in court, therefore she was not in the condition of being entitled to have an interpreter in the meaning of Art. 6 of the Convention (which refers to papers usable in a court).


e) The psychological pressure allegedly suffered by the applicant during interrogations of 6 November 2007, she has violated the right of the latter to a fair trial within the meaning of Article 6 § 1 of the Convention, and the right to respect for private life protected by Article 8 § 1 of the Convention?


The applicant later in court she claimed of having suffered of a False Memory Syndrome.
It needs to be pointed out that there was only one interrogation reported in trial papers, that lasted overall a time between 22.30 and 01.45, that is three hours.
The final judgements of Cassazione deposited in 2013 and 2015 point out that the calunnia committed by the applicant was a prolonged behaviour, that she committed on multiple occasions, and that the statement she released on Nov. 6 recorded on paper by a prosecutor at the presence of an interpreter, was a spontaneous statement, not an interogation (and as said, the applicant's defence position was to not claim there was any prosecution's interrogation).

However a more general observation shall also be made. The dossier submitted by the applicant (Knox) is a narrative, not a full report. That is a main point. Narratives are misleading and false accounts that basically tell a false story. The reason why they are false is not that they just report false facts, but above all they cherry pick some facts, while they omit others. The problem here is not just that the dossier reports false facts, but rather that it omits a number of documents. Knox defence's sure "forgot" to brief the Strasbourg Court about the Cassazione final verdict of 2013, which definitivey quashes part of the Hellmann reasoning about Calunnia, finalizing part of the findings of 2009 but annulling other parts of the reasoning. Cassazione annulled specifically the reasoning of Hellmann about the logical link between calunnia and murder, but also finalised other parts pointing out that the false accusation was not confined withi an interrogation but was a "prolonged behaviour" that Knox repeated on multiple occasions. The same final status of finding was remarked by the Bruno/Marasca verdict about the calunnia, which sure Knox's lawyers forgot to quote. They also "forgot" to deposit Anna Donnino's testimony.
 
Since when has Machiavelli had any joy with his predictions Vixen? Every last one of them has been thrown out.
He really should stick to photographing clowns.

Machiavelli was correct in predicting the Chieffi, Section 1 annulling of Hellmann in 2013. He also correctly corrected me a year or two ago about a court date for Mignini in the abuse of office charges against him.
 
Hello all! I see there is some cause for celebration here today and a vindication not only for Amanda Knox but for all of us who correctly argued how this matter would play out at the ECHR. Nevertheless, now the games start. If I remember correctly, the outcome we imagine that Ms Knox is most desirous of - namely the overturning of the silly calunia verdict in Italy, is not something that the state of Italy is able to grant as a settlement of the matter, which, if forthcoming, would inevitably lead to the case not being adjudicated by the ECHR. Instead, I think she must resist a settlement, assuming one is to be forthcoming, since there is nothing that Italy has to offer that she wants. Indeed, from my memory of the processes in place, it is not altogether clear that Italy will not attempt to defend its position, for numerous reasons. It would seem likely that we are heading to a judgement, which will almost certainly be a year or two away. First, Italy must respond to the communication.

Welcome back, Kauffer!

Even in the case of a settlement by Italy, they must offer a revision trial - that is the whole point of Knox lodging the complaint with the ECHR.

The next steps include the ECHR gathering all the information it needs to issue a judgment. That could indeed take 1 or 2 years before the judgment is issued.
 
Good to see Machiavelli making a case for Italy in this - and the ECHR process has only just begun!

And since when did anyone making a case for something declare anything other than.....

To those who wonder what I think, and whether I believe I am right, the answer is yes, I absolutely know I am right.
 
Rubbish. ECHR has merely sent out an interrogatory to all parties. It has NOT listed the case for a hearing.

Hold your horses.

Hearings in this type of case are not held. Only cases reviewed by the Grand Chamber typically get hearings.

Do a little research.
 
No, the ECHR cannot make a finding of 'Article 6 infringement' without holding a hearing in which both parties are entitled to bend the judges' ears. Please give me the citation in which it says she has 'already won her Article 6 infringement claims'.

The Supreme Court rejected her claim of coercion.

LOL. Your post reflects no concept of what the ECHR does in Chamber cases.

There are no appearances before judges. The entire case is held through an exchange of written answers to question posed by the ECHR Chamber.

Only Grand Chamber cases get hearings, in which the lawyers for both parties give speeches and are asked questions in a public hearing.
 
It's Art 3. It's not important legally. Only Art 6 is important. That's the article that gets Italian verdicts rescinded.

In a conviction based on a statement obtained in violation of Article 3, there is automatically a violation of Article 6, meaning that the trial was unfair.
 
Well, put the champagne on hold for now as a majority of ECHR applications get rejected at this stage.

Read the ECHR question again. Only if she can prove she exhausted all internal complaints procedures and avenues of redress on offer in Italy will they even countenance the rest of the questions. It is a low hurdle she simply does not clear at any number of attempts.

No! You have misunderstood. There is no requirement to make specific time dependent complaints with regard to Art 6 claims. The only valid question on Art 6 is whether she has exhausted her domestic appeals - and she has. The conviction for callunia was confirmed by cassation post Nencini, before the cases ever got to Bruno. You read the ECHR questions again! The art 6 ones relate to exhaustion of appeals not to whether the claim is supported by a separate complaint.

It maybe, given Italian law, that the art 3 claim will fail. It depends on whether Knox's own communication to the police that she was hit amounts to a complaint or whether for some other reason, in relation to inhuman treatment, the ECHR is freer to rule in her favour. I seem to remember a discussion about this from long ago.

On your other post of yummi's view - he is simply wrong on art 6 as far as the lawyer and interpreter are concerned. Knox was interrogated. That she was at the questura without invitation is irrelevant. She was taken in for interrogation. That the interpreter acted by her own admission as a 'mediator' essentially identifies her as an agent of the police.
 
In a conviction based on a statement obtained in violation of Article 3, there is automatically a violation of Article 6, meaning that the trial was unfair.

I beg your pardon! You are right!

Nevertheless, art 6 directly is the easier claim in this case.
 
QUOTE:
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I' ve always been interested in what makes people tick. Hence, my life long enjoyment of good literature, film and the arts.

The heights and depths of the human condition is vast. I want to understand what makes people want to plunder the depths of depravity.

In the case of Meredith Kercher, I feel desperately sorry for her family and that Mez was cruelly robbed of her life for futile trivial motive.

In 'Dead man Walking' based loosely on a true crime in Louisiana (ETA), the nun in the lead role tries to persuade the murderer to acknowledge his culpability before his execution.

Mez' family deserve justice, and I believe good is always victorious over evil, in the end. As Paul says in his letter to the Corinthians, Always run the race to win the prize.​





Hi. Just dropped in to see that this is still going on. I am rather nonplused by your desire to hear "ideas" from a non-contributor to thought. 4600 plus examples of non-thought. Non-thought that you and others give existence.

Carry on.

There are peripheral issues of interest, however, regarding nonsense guilter activity no one else in the universe is listening except the addicted very few to this saga.

Ciao!

I'm rather nonplussed when people criticize someone else for a continuing interest in the case when they are still interested enough to bother dropping in to see what's going on. :confused:
 
Well, put the champagne on hold for now as a majority of ECHR applications get rejected at this stage.
Read the ECHR question again. Only if she can prove she exhausted all internal complaints procedures and avenues of redress on offer in Italy will they even countenance the rest of the questions. It is a low hurdle she simply does not clear at any number of attempts.

Please provide a citation for this statement.

With respect to your other statements, you have obviously not researched the ECHR case-law on what the ECHR considers a complaint to domestic authorities. Your statement is another LOL howler.
 
No! You have misunderstood. There is no requirement to make specific time dependent complaints with regard to Art 6 claims. The only valid question on Art 6 is whether she has exhausted her domestic appeals - and she has. The conviction for callunia was confirmed by cassation post Nencini, before the cases ever got to Bruno. You read the ECHR questions again! The art 6 ones relate to exhaustion of appeals not to whether the claim is supported by a separate complaint.

It maybe, given Italian law, that the art 3 claim will fail. It depends on whether Knox's own communication to the police that she was hit amounts to a complaint or whether for some other reason, in relation to inhuman treatment, the ECHR is freer to rule in her favour. I seem to remember a discussion about this from long ago.
On your other post of yummi's view - he is simply wrong on art 6 as far as the lawyer and interpreter are concerned. Knox was interrogated. That she was at the questura without invitation is irrelevant. She was taken in for interrogation. That the interpreter acted by her own admission as a 'mediator' essentially identifies her as an agent of the police.

On this, the ECHR case-law is that a statement in court alleging mistreatment by police amounts to a complaint to authorities. The prosecutor is obligated to act on it by investigating the allegation. And not by charging the person making the allegation with calunnia against the police.
 
Welcome back, Kauffer!

Even in the case of a settlement by Italy, they must offer a revision trial - that is the whole point of Knox lodging the complaint with the ECHR.

The next steps include the ECHR gathering all the information it needs to issue a judgment. That could indeed take 1 or 2 years before the judgment is issued.

Hi Numbers! Well now, this is interesting! How is Italy, the state, in a position to offer a revision trial (which would be an exoneration, given that there would be no remaining admissible evidence and the case would be beyond statutory limitation)? The constitution separates the judicial system from the state. My understanding is that the callunia verdict can only be threatened by an Art 6 or, as you corrected me, Art 3 ruling. In other words, according to Italian law, I suggest, the Italian courts can only move (and indeed, must move) on the basis of a new application from Knox's counsel armed with an art 6 ECHR ruling.

Or am I wrong?!
 
I have little to no doubt that the folks in Strasbourg will be in on the fix along with the Masons, Vecchiotti, Pratillo Hellmann and Frank Svarzo. What say you, LondonJohn?

It's a fix, I tell ya. A fix! :p

I'll be in Strasbourg in about 3 weeks. I'll check in with the ECHR and warn them of the dangers of consorting with the above. I'll also check out the corridors for any of the Million Dollar PR Machine shills who may be lurking in the dark corners waiting to spring upon unsuspecting court judges.:D
 
No! You have misunderstood. There is no requirement to make specific time dependent complaints with regard to Art 6 claims. The only valid question on Art 6 is whether she has exhausted her domestic appeals - and she has. The conviction for callunia was confirmed by cassation post Nencini, before the cases ever got to Bruno. You read the ECHR questions again! The art 6 ones relate to exhaustion of appeals not to whether the claim is supported by a separate complaint.

It maybe, given Italian law, that the art 3 claim will fail. It depends on whether Knox's own communication to the police that she was hit amounts to a complaint or whether for some other reason, in relation to inhuman treatment, the ECHR is freer to rule in her favour. I seem to remember a discussion about this from long ago.

On your other post of yummi's view - he is simply wrong on art 6 as far as the lawyer and interpreter are concerned. Knox was interrogated. That she was at the questura without invitation is irrelevant. She was taken in for interrogation. That the interpreter acted by her own admission as a 'mediator' essentially identifies her as an agent of the police.

A mediator is not an agent, but most important Anna Donnino's testimony is reliable because it is intrinsically credible, and it is a fact that Knox defence omits it. It is also important to note that Anna Donnino was certanly not only an interpreter ("agent" ad you put it) with the police, she was also working between Knox and Prosecutor, diferent subjects, without police being one of them, when she released her spontaneous statement.
It is also absolutely important that the defence lawyers did not rise any claim that a prosecution interogation (illegal) ever took place.
Not even Amanda Knox herself used the word "interrogation" in her first court statement in 2008; she said "they asked me to make a statement", using the only the word "statement" and not the word "interrogation".
 
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