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Continuation Part 21: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

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Vixen said:
Rubbish. ECHR has merely sent out an interrogatory to all parties. It has NOT listed the case for a hearing.

Hold your horses.
Kauffer said:
It's not listed because the process hasn't been completed. First, Italy must respond to the charges. Nothing I wrote contradicts this. But, the outcome will not be in Italy's favour. Of that you may be assured - in fact it was and is entirely predictable. Some of us actually did predict it. You were wrong.
First, Amanda will have too satisfy ECHR she went through the complaints channels. This can only be bypassed in Torture cases. OK, so she's quoted Article 3 'being tapped on the head'.

Move over Nelson Mandela. We have a new Human Rights icon.

Slow down, Vixen, slow down. And the strawman exaggerations do not help your "argument" at all.

The process is started, in whatever way it starts - everyone is agreed on that. The people you listen to are trying to minimize it using, "it's only...." language as if it will not necessarily lead to the next step....

..... or will not necessarily lead to the ECHR finding in Knox's favour at some point in time. You know what!? It may NOT lead to the next step. It may NOT lead to ECHR finding in Knox's favour. Then again it just may.... at least let the electrons settle on the ECHR website before one more guilter prediction of doom and gloom.

Yesterday a lurker came out from reading to wonder why it is that Vixen keeps posting, and why (probably of more interest to the poster) people keep responding.

Of interest is the seemingly endless supply of, "the Channel 5 climber was 6' 7"," or, "The March 2015 acquittal wasn't really an acquittal," or (endless pointless, factually inaccurate somethings.......)

So just one more time - why are you bringing up "torture", Vixen? It has been seen that there are other issues in that section within the ECHR terms of reference, you get stuck on that one word as a strawman.... as always.

Why not just sit back, relax, and see how this plays out? The ECHR has not ruled on this, and if the sources here are at all accurate it's probably two years away from that point of ECHR finality!?

The people you listen to have been predicting doom and gloom for either of RS or AK for years now. If they'd been right people like Bruce Fischer would be in hiding from Interpol by now. Why listen to them?
 
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This is a more complicated area than your otherwise correct statement indicates.

Each claim of a violation of each specific article will be analyzed by the ECHR for the exhaustion of domestic remedies. However, the domestic remedy must be practically available and potentially effective.

For example, if one complains of police mistreatment and then there is no effective investigation of the complaint and the person complaining is charged with the crime of falsely accusing the police of a crime, the ECHR could very well agree that there was no practical and effective domestic remedy available.

AIUI she has to show she was given no redress to complain. There's a piece in the GUARDIAN about a woman traveller in the UK who was awarded £6K compensation for being evicted *and denied the right to appeal against it*. The compensation was because the UK did not provide an avenue of complaint, not the eviction itself.

Amanda had ample opportunities for redress. Not least, two automatic appeals.

It is obvious the story about being slapped is a feeble attempt to detract from her serious crime of accusing a perfectly innocent man of rape and murder.
 
First, Amanda will have too satisfy ECHR she went through the complaints channels. This can only be bypassed in Torture cases. OK, so she's quoted Article 3 'being tapped on the head'.

Move over Nelson Mandela. We have a new Human Rights icon.

If you look at the ECHR document, you will see that she has 'already' won her Article 6 infringement claims. That's all that matters. That, with the law in Italy being explicit on this point, is sufficient to nullify the callunia verdict per an ECHR ruling on the matter.

You tell me how Italy can possibly defend the Art 6 claims, if you really believe I'm wrong.
 
Slow down, Vixen, slow down. And the strawman exaggerations do not help your "argument" at all.

The process is started, in whatever way it starts - everyone is agreed on that. The people you listen to are trying to minimize it using, "it's only...." language as if it will not necessarily lead to the next step....

..... or will not necessarily lead to the ECHR finding in Knox's favour at some point in time. You know what!? It may NOT lead to the next step. It may NOT lead to ECHR finding in Knox's favour. Then again it just may.... at least let the electrons settle on the ECHR website before one more guilter prediction of doom and gloom.

Yesterday a lurker came out from reading to wonder why it is that Vixen keeps posting, and why (probably of more interest to the poster) people keep responding.

Of interest is the seemingly endless supply of, "the Channel 5 climber was 6' 7"," or, "The March 2015 acquittal wasn't really an acquittal," or (endless pointless, factually inaccurate somethings.......)

So just one more time - why are you bringing up "torture", Vixen? It has been seen that there are other issues in that section within the ECHR terms of reference, you get stuck on that one word as a strawman.... as always.

Why not just sit back, relax, and see how this plays out? The ECHR has not ruled on this, and if the sources here are at all accurate it's probably two years away from that point of ECHR finality!?

The people you listen to have been predicting doom and gloom for either of RS or AK for years now. If they'd been right people like Bruce Fischer would be in hiding from Interpol by now. Why listen to them?

Amanda has cited Article 3: Torture: Inhuman or degrading treatment to get around the fact she failed to go through the complaints procedures open to her.

Article 6: Right to a fair trial: two automatic appeals: can't get much fairer than that.
 
Hello all! I see there is some cause for celebration here today and a vindication not only for Amanda Knox but for all of us who correctly argued how this matter would play out at the ECHR. Nevertheless, now the games start. If I remember correctly, the outcome we imagine that Ms Knox is most desirous of - namely the overturning of the silly calunia verdict in Italy, is not something that the state of Italy is able to grant as a settlement of the matter, which, if forthcoming, would inevitably lead to the case not being adjudicated by the ECHR. Instead, I think she must resist a settlement, assuming one is to be forthcoming, since there is nothing that Italy has to offer that she wants. Indeed, from my memory of the processes in place, it is not altogether clear that Italy will not attempt to defend its position, for numerous reasons. It would seem likely that we are heading to a judgement, which will almost certainly be a year or two away. First, Italy must respond to the communication.

At some point Italy will have to put its cards on the table. The Marasca/Bruno report spent bandwidth in its defence-of-the-appropriateness-of-the-calunnia-conviction to allow little wiggle room - even as M/B acquitted the pair, they seemed to be drawing a line in the sand over this one issue, presumably knowing what was coming and what was at stake.

The fox is amongst the chickens.
 
If you look at the ECHR document, you will see that she has 'already' won her Article 6 infringement claims. That's all that matters. That, with the law in Italy being explicit on this point, is sufficient to nullify the callunia verdict per an ECHR ruling on the matter.

You tell me how Italy can possibly defend the Art 6 claims, if you really believe I'm wrong.

No, the ECHR cannot make a finding of 'Article 6 infringement' without holding a hearing in which both parties are entitled to bend the judges' ears.

Please give me the citation in which it says she has 'already won her Article 6 infringement claims'.

The Supreme Court rejected her claim of coercion.
 
Amanda has cited Article 3: Torture: Inhuman or degrading treatment to get around the fact she failed to go through the complaints procedures open to her.
It seems to me you are taking your advice from someone with a bone to pick. No matter, neither you nor I know enough really to comment. The impotant thing is - soon, your guilter friends will be accusing the ECHR of some sort of misconduct for it getting even this far.

Article 6: Right to a fair trial: two automatic appeals: can't get much fairer than that.
Lessee - there are other elements to a fair trial other than the structure of appeals..... I had those things right here a minute ago.....

The right to a fair trial might also mean that one has to be convicted on the evidence, such evidence relating to the way the crime is described. Calunnia requires that one know that the person accused was innocent. But that's only one..... lessee what might other "fair trial" issues be?
 
If you look at the ECHR document, you will see that she has 'already' won her Article 6 infringement claims. That's all that matters. That, with the law in Italy being explicit on this point, is sufficient to nullify the callunia verdict per an ECHR ruling on the matter.
You tell me how Italy can possibly defend the Art 6 claims, if you really believe I'm wrong.

That is incorrect. The ECHR does not have the power to nullify the calunnia conviction.
 
It seems to me you are taking your advice from someone with a bone to pick. No matter, neither you nor I know enough really to comment. The impotant thing is - soon, your guilter friends will be accusing the ECHR of some sort of misconduct for it getting even this far.


Lessee - there are other elements to a fair trial other than the structure of appeals..... I had those things right here a minute ago.....

The right to a fair trial might also mean that one has to be convicted on the evidence, such evidence relating to the way the crime is described. Calunnia requires that one know that the person accused was innocent. But that's only one..... lessee what might other "fair trial" issues be?

A police interception of a conversation between Amanda and her mother shows that Amanda did indeed know Patrick was innocent. Edda colluded by failing to notify the police of Patrick's false imprisonment. Edda and Amanda were happy to let Patrick rot, despite knowing he had no involvement in the crime.

As Marasca/Bruno ruled, Amanda knew Patrick to be innocent as her motivation in accusing him was to cover up for Rudy.

Clearly the Supreme Court believed Amanda knew who the real killers were all along and named Patrick out of calculated malice to detract from herself and Rudy.
 
That is incorrect. The ECHR does not have the power to nullify the calunnia conviction.

Nor did I say it does! But the Italian courts do! More so in fact. They have an obligation to do so in law - their law, in the light of an Art 6 violation. We went through all this some time ago.
 
At some point Italy will have to put its cards on the table. The Marasca/Bruno report spent bandwidth in its defence-of-the-appropriateness-of-the-calunnia-conviction to allow little wiggle room - even as M/B acquitted the pair, they seemed to be drawing a line in the sand over this one issue, presumably knowing what was coming and what was at stake.

The fox is amongst the chickens.

Read the question carefully. Question 1 is, was Amanda given redress for her complaints and did she exhaust the avenues? If the answer is 'Yes' only then can Question 2 be entertained. AIUI Amanda did not file a complaint against the police and nor did she obtain a medical report to substantiate the slapping allegation.

QUESTIONS TO THE PARTIES

1. Has the applicant exhausted the domestic remedies available to her to complain about the violation of Article 3 of the Convention, concerning the slaps (scappellotti) allegedly suffered, and Articles 6 §§ 1 and 3 a), c) and e) and 8 of the Convention?

2. If so:

a) Was the applicant subjected, in breach of Article 3 of the Convention, to inhuman or degrading treatment?

b) Was the applicant, as required by Article 6 § 3 a) of the Convention, informed promptly, in a language she could understand and in detail, of the nature and cause of the charges against her for false accusation?

c) Did the applicant have the assistance of counsel of her choice, as required by Article 6 § 3 c) of the Convention, especially during the interrogation of 6 November 2007?

d) Did the applicant obtain the free assistance of an interpreter, within the meaning of Article 6 § 3 e) of the Convention?

e) Did the psychological pressure allegedly suffered by the applicant during the interrogations of 6 November 2007, violate the right of the applicant to a fair trial within the meaning of Article 6 § 1 of the Convention, and the right to respect for private life protected by Article 8 § 1 of the Convention?
 
No, the ECHR cannot make a finding of 'Article 6 infringement' without holding a hearing in which both parties are entitled to bend the judges' ears.

Please give me the citation in which it says she has 'already won her Article 6 infringement claims'.

The Supreme Court rejected her claim of coercion.

For heaven's sake... I put 'already' in inverted commas - as in 'already won'. I used the phrase because Italy has no defence - Knox had no lawyer nor independent interpreter. That's it - slam and dunk. The other Art 6 claim regarding her being properly informed of charges etc I cannot knowledgeably comment on at this point as I cannot recall the evidence. But I'm sure we can find out.

The question I asked you with regard to any possible defence to these Art 6 claims was the clue you needed in order to understand I was making no claim that the ECHR had already ruled. But if and when they do rule, they will rule in Knox's favour. There is no rational reason to suppose they can do otherwise, as even you will be able to work out if you try to answer my question.
 
Nor did I say it does! But the Italian courts do! More so in fact. They have an obligation to do so in law - their law, in the light of an Art 6 violation. We went through all this some time ago.

Seriously? So what you are saying is that all a person charged with a serious crime such as murder and sexual assault has to do is make a claim that he or she was tapped on the head, even though no complaint was filed, no doctor was seen and there were no witnesses to the fact. And on this basis, they should be automatically granted a pardon.

Riiight
 
Read the question carefully. Question 1 is, was Amanda given redress for her complaints and did she exhaust the avenues? If the answer is 'Yes' only then can Question 2 be entertained. AIUI Amanda did not file a complaint against the police and nor did she obtain a medical report to substantiate the slapping allegation.

It's Art 3. It's not important legally. Only Art 6 is important. That's the article that gets Italian verdicts rescinded.
 
Seriously? So what you are saying is that all a person charged with a serious crime such as murder and sexual assault has to do is make a claim that he or she was tapped on the head, even though no complaint was filed, no doctor was seen and there were no witnesses to the fact. And on this basis, they should be automatically granted a pardon.

Riiight

Firstly, it's not a pardon that's on the table here, though interestingly, the offer of one is available for Italy to offer. Yet, a pardon, typically, is a tacit admission of guilt. And that's no good to Knox. (When Nixon took a pardon from Ford, he accepted the 'imputation' of guilt, according to the Supreme Court circa 1925- I forget the actual case).

But you are simply not understanding me. The art 6 claims relating to the absence of a lawyer and independent interpreter are not subject to proof of complaint. She DIDNT have a lawyer OR an independent interpreter.

So your continued discussion of Art 3 is entirely unjustified. You are looking in the wrong place. Art 6 breaches will trigger the callunia verdict's overturning. That is the law in Italy.
 
For heaven's sake... I put 'already' in inverted commas - as in 'already won'. I used the phrase because Italy has no defence - Knox had no lawyer nor independent interpreter. That's it - slam and dunk. The other Art 6 claim regarding her being properly informed of charges etc I cannot knowledgeably comment on at this point as I cannot recall the evidence. But I'm sure we can find out.

The question I asked you with regard to any possible defence to these Art 6 claims was the clue you needed in order to understand I was making no claim that the ECHR had already ruled. But if and when they do rule, they will rule in Knox's favour. There is no rational reason to suppose they can do otherwise, as even you will be able to work out if you try to answer my question.

FWIW here's Machiavelli's potted opinion:

My quick answers to the ECHR questions 1. The applicant: has she exhausted the domestic remedies available to him to complain about the violation of Article 3 of the Convention, concerning the steps (scappellotti) allegedly suffered, and Articles 6 §§ 1 and 3 a), c) and e) and 8 of the Convention?

No.
In fact, the applicant did not even initiate the process to seek a remedy through Italian law.
The point is particularly relevant not only because of the obvious status of inadmissibility of the application before the ECHR (no domestic remedy was attampted), but also as for its probative value as for assessing the credibility of the version of facts provided by the applicant.

This is because of the following legal provisions under Italian law: a) the crimes of beating (cp 581), or physical violence or threat (cp. 610-612) require the victim to file a complaint in order to allow prosecution of the charge, otherwise investigation cannt initiate; b) the Ethics Code of lawyers requires a defence attorney to file a charge if he/she collects a claim by a client under detention, and to properly inform the clinet about the necessity to file a complaint; c) if a lawyer is informed by a client under detention that the same client suffered a violence or offence by authorities, and does not take proper legal steps, the lawyer would commit an extremely serious criminal offence called "infedele patrocinio" (betrayal of the interest of clint) besides breaching the Ethics Code; d) a defence attorney is also required to object any irregularity of breach of the code that could be suffered by the client, namely, in the particular case, if the applicants current claims had been made at the tiem, the lawyers shoud have denounced the breach of Procedure Code claiming that a prosecution interrogation had taken place (thus, that would mean breaching the Procedure code that prevents prosecution from questioning a suspect prior to his/her appearence before a judge), but the defence attorney never raised such claim.
Therefore, the failure to initiate procedure for domestic remedy by the applicant on this claim, not only causes the request to be inadmissible on this point, but also undermines any possible credibility of the claim itself.

2. If so:

a) Does the applicant have been submitted, in breach of Article 3 of the Convention, inhuman or degrading treatment?

It is impossible to know for certain whether she received a slap at the back of her head, while it is impossible to prove it. There is actualy no element of evidence in support of that besides the applicant's writing, while there are elements tat indicate the opposite, that is: the defences' failure to make the necessary step for complain and initiate a process to investigate the claim; the testimony of interpreter Anna Donnino who was present at the police interrogation, a reliable witness who denies any mistreatment ever took place in her presence.

b) The applicant she has, as required by Article 6 § 3 a) of the Convention, was informed in promptly, in a language they understand and in detail, of the nature and cause of the charge against him for false accusation?

Yes, the charge for false accusation anyway was issued much later. She was not a suspect for that crime at the time of the interrogation nor in the following days.

c) Does the applicant have had the assistance of counsel of his choice, as required by Article 6 § 3 c) of the Convention, especially during interrogation of 6 November 2007?

No interrogation took place on 6 November 2007 (except the police questioning that ended at 01.45 am).
Had interrogation taken place later that day, it would have been illegal. Knox's defence should have rised a complaint to the court immediately if that happened. They never raised such claim.

d) Has the applicant obtained the free assistance of an interpreter, within the meaning of Article 6 § 3 e) of the Convention?

Yes, she had an interpreter, but the applicant was not suspected of that charge at the time, and was not undergoing an interrogation, but only a police questioning which is inadmissible as testimony in court, therefore she was not in the condition of being entitled to have an interpreter in the meaning of Art. 6 of the Convention (which refers to papers usable in a court).

e) The psychological pressure allegedly suffered by the applicant during interrogations of 6 November 2007, she has violated the right of the latter to a fair trial within the meaning of Article 6 § 1 of the Convention, and the right to respect for private life protected by Article 8 § 1 of the Convention?

The applicant later in court she claimed of having suffered of a False Memory Syndrome.
It needs to be pointed out that there was only one interrogation reported in trial papers, that lasted overall a time between 22.30 and 01.45, that is three hours.
The final judgements of Cassazione deposited in 2013 and 2015 point out that the calunnia committed by the applicant was a prolonged behaviour, that she committed on multiple occasions, and that the statement she released on Nov. 6 recorded on paper by a prosecutor at the presence of an interpreter, was a spontaneous statement, not an interogation (and as said, the applicant's defence position was to not claim there was any prosecution's interrogation).

ETA : The dossier submitted by the applicant (Knox) is a narrative, not a full report. Narratives are misleading and false accounts. The reason why they are misleading is not that they just report false facts, but that they cherry pick some and omit others. The problem here is not just that the dossier reports false facts, but rather that it omits a number of documents. (Machiavelli)
 
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Since when has Machiavelli had any joy with his predictions Vixen? Every last one of them has been thrown out.
He really should stick to photographing clowns.
 
Firstly, it's not a pardon that's on the table here, though interestingly, the offer of one is available for Italy to offer. Yet, a pardon, typically, is a tacit admission of guilt. And that's no good to Knox. (When Nixon took a pardon from Ford, he accepted the 'imputation' of guilt, according to the Supreme Court circa 1925- I forget the actual case).

But you are simply not understanding me. The art 6 claims relating to the absence of a lawyer and independent interpreter are not subject to proof of complaint. She DIDNT have a lawyer OR an independent interpreter.

So your continued discussion of Art 3 is entirely unjustified. You are looking in the wrong place. Art 6 breaches will trigger the callunia verdict's overturning. That is the law in Italy.

Well, put the champagne on hold for now as a majority of ECHR applications get rejected at this stage.

Read the ECHR question again. Only if she can prove she exhausted all internal complaints procedures and avenues of redress on offer in Italy will they even countenance the rest of the questions. It is a low hurdle she simply does not clear at any number of attempts.
 
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Well, put the champagne on hold for now as a majority of ECHR applications get rejected at this stage.

Read the ECHR question again. Only if she can prove she exhausted all internal complaints procedures and avenues of redress on offer in Italy will they even countenance the rest of the questions. It is a low hurdle she simply does not clear at any number of attempts.

Not this one. Italy is cooked. I see you have stopped arguing on the merits and are now desperately relying on general statistics.
 
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