Merged General Israel/Palestine discussion thread - Part 2

[Nessie]

Except Livingstone never said Hitler "effectively" supported anything- he said Hitler supported Zionism. It's not unfair to characterize a "Zionist supporter" as a Zionist... not in the least. The idea clearly was to smear Zionism by including Hitler as one of its adherents. As it turns out, he couldn't even get the history right.

That is his only "crime". His version of history wasn't very accurate. Hitler and Zionists wanted Jews to leave Germany and live elsewhere is a more accurate summary.

 

[CapelDodger]

Israel is not the direct cause that Hamas kills Palestinians, it's a rationalization.

Israel is the direct cause of Palestinians being in Gaza.

Palestinians are not simply props for showing how evil Israel is, nor a plot point to be sacrificed at the alter of moral pea-cocking. They are humans, with their own agency, filled with saints and sinners.

In the Zionist scheme they are a de-personalised impediment.

The actions of Hamas are not all at the feet of Israel. It simply isn't so. If you think it is, you deny the Palestinians their humanity. And that's quite the ongoing theme for both the far right in Israel, and the anti-Israel posters here.

The Palestinians humanity was denied when the Zionist project to build a Jewish State for Jewish People and not for Palestinians was first embarked on. There would be no Israeli-Palestinian conflict if a gang of Ashkenazim in Europe hadn't decided to disposess an entire population of whom they had no knowledge or experience for their own gratification, and felt that to be perfectly decent and typical behaviour for white men dealing with lesser races.

That was 120 years ago, give or take. Everything that has followed has followed because of it. Palestine and its environs today would be a completely different place, and one where Jews and Arabs would be living together as they always had done. Until the Zionists came swaggering down the gangplank telling all and sundry that they were coming to take it and the locals were history.

Something we'd have been spared is the Zionist importation from their Central European homeland of the traditional terrorist bomb.

That's why a lot of us don't like Israel, and Jewishness actually has nothing to do with it. I don't give a toss what race people are. Zionists do, though. It's central to their thinking. That's their problem.

 

[Ziggurat]

Palestine and its environs today would be a completely different place, and one where Jews and Arabs would be living together as they always had done.

This is delusional. Arabs can't even live with each other in peace.

 

[CapelDodger]

This is delusional. Arabs can't even live with each other in peace.

Do keep feeding us the racial characteristics of Arabs as you see them.

As someone of scientific bent you'll appreciate that the evidence of Arab tendencies that you're going on is not independent of the Zionist project as it has played out over the last 120 years. A European colony carved out of the Levant coast, both in the process and in the reality, for the first time since the Crusaders, is one hell of a confounding factor.

Something that's interesting at the moment is how not about Israel the Middle East is these days.

Jews and Arabs lived together in Palestine for eight hundred years without problems, ever since the Muslims finally pushed the Christians out. Of course nobody could live with them; who can? They also lived in Palestine together before the Crusaders came.

Of course these were Palestinian Jews living in Palestine, not the Ashkenazi Zionists who decided to make the place their playpen and screwed things up for everybody.

You should keep in mind that this nationalist dream of racial purity and proper respect for one's Community Leaders didn't emerge in the nation, it was launched from afar. I think it's telling that the first thing the Zionists did when they got control of the Promised Land was to start re-engineering it in the modern style. Fixing God's snagging, I like to think of it.

 

[CapelDodger]

That is his only "crime". His version of history wasn't very accurate. Hitler and Zionists wanted Jews to leave Germany and live elsewhere is a more accurate summary.

In the early 30's there was, of course, no formed Nazi vision of the Jewish role - if any - their German society, nor formed Zionist opinion of the Nazis. It obviously wouldn't escape anyone's attention that the two had interests in common and some contacts were made in the usual exotic locations but not much worked out apparently. It is said that Hitler didn't want to annoy the British by sending them boatloads of Jews and further inflaming the Arabs, an inferior race that the British were doing a great job of keeping in order.

It's easy to forget, given the later falling-out, that Hitler thought highly of the British Empire and its management of the darkies. The same can be said for the Zionists.

 

[Ziggurat]

Do keep feeding us the racial characteristics of Arabs as you see them.

It's not racial, it's cultural. Can you not do any better than such obvious strawman?

Something that's interesting at the moment is how not about Israel the Middle East is these days.

Well, duh. Which shouldn't come as a surprise, because I'm right: the arabs haven't figured out peace yet, not even with each other. You want to imply I'm racist for saying so, and yet you don't offer any real argument to the contrary.

Jews and Arabs lived together in Palestine for eight hundred years without problems

Yeah, back when all of them were under the oppressive thumb of the Ottoman Empire. The Ottomans did indeed do a good job at keeping the lid on things.

Of course these were Palestinian Jews living in Palestine, not the Ashkenazi Zionists who decided to make the place their playpen and screwed things up for everybody.

... what was it you were saying about racial characteristics?

 

[WildCat]

Do keep feeding us the racial characteristics of Arabs as you see them.

It's a cultural characteristic, not a racial one.

Fact is there are few peaceful Arab countries, and in the ones that are it's only because of a strong oppressive government committing all sorts of abuses to keep it that way.

 

[CapelDodger]

It's not racial, it's cultural. Can you not do any better than such obvious strawman?

I assume you'd categorise a culture as Arabic only if the people following it ar Arabic? How would you categorise the people as Arabic? By their Arabic culture? Or their race?

And this "culture" : is it the culture of Arabia Proper, or the Marsh Arabs, or the varied cities of the Tigris and Euphrates? There is no one culture, of course, but there is one simple race. You seek to conflate the two.

Can you not dissemble better than this?

Well, duh. Which shouldn't come as a surprise, because I'm right: the arabs haven't figured out peace yet, not even with each other. You want to imply I'm racist for saying so, and yet you don't offer any real argument to the contrary.

Europeans haven't figured out peace yet according to your principle.

The Arab World is currently in turmoil, this is true, but it's not the inevitable result of some bad Arab cuture genes. The Arab cities of Syria and Mesopotamia have, in their time, been leading cultures. There is nothing special being said about Arabs by current, and inevitably ephemeral, events.

Yeah, back when all of them were under the oppressive thumb of the Ottoman Empire. The Ottomans did indeed do a good job at keeping the lid on things.

The Crusaders were ejected by Arab and Kurdish forces, not Ottoman; they came centuries later. As soon as the Christians were out of Jerusalem and then of Palestine Arabs and Jews moved back in together. The history of murderous Arab intent towards Jews throughout is a Zionist invention.

... what was it you were saying about racial characteristics?

The relevant qualifier is "Zionists"; they were Ashkenazi, which is descriptive, but I'm not talking about the Ashkenazi. I'm talking, as you've surely noticed, about Zionists. "Zionism" is not a racial characteristic of Ashkenazi Jews, although Zionists do sometimes make exactly that claim for all Jews. All True Jews, anyway.

 

[caveman1917]

Fact is there are few peaceful Arab countries, and in the ones that are it's only because of a strong oppressive government committing all sorts of abuses to keep it that way.

Interesting notion of "peaceful".

 

[Ziggurat]

I assume you'd categorise a culture as Arabic only if the people following it ar Arabic?

You assume lots of things. Many of them are not true.

How would you categorise the people as Arabic? By their Arabic culture? Or their race?

It's the cultural arabs who are unable to remain at peace. Ethnic arabs who have adopted western culture do just fine.

And this "culture" : is it the culture of Arabia Proper, or the Marsh Arabs, or the varied cities of the Tigris and Euphrates? There is no one culture, of course, but there is one simple race. You seek to conflate the two.

All of those cultures are messed up.

Can you not dissemble better than this?

Can you not do better than this continued attempt at straw men?

Europeans haven't figured out peace yet according to your principle.

They most certainly have figured out peace between each other, though it took WW2 for them to learn it.

The Arab World is currently in turmoil, this is true, but it's not the inevitable result of some bad Arab cuture genes.

Obviously not, since culture is not transmitted through genes.

The Arab cities of Syria and Mesopotamia have, in their time, been leading cultures.

That was a long time ago.

There is nothing special being said about Arabs by current, and inevitably ephemeral, events.

That's true: endemic violence isn't special. It's historically quite normal. Nevertheless, nothing you have said indicates that I'm in any way wrong.

The relevant qualifier is "Zionists"; they were Ashkenazi, which is descriptive, but I'm not talking about the Ashkenazi. I'm talking, as you've surely noticed, about Zionists. "Zionism" is not a racial characteristic of Ashkenazi Jews, although Zionists do sometimes make exactly that claim for all Jews. All True Jews, anyway.

In other words, you claim to be able to separate culture from race. But you aren't willing to believe that I might do so.

You're a hypocrite.

 

[skeptichaggis]

I am sure no case has been made that there are anti-Semitic MPs in labour and that Sha and Livingstone are anti-Semitic. The criticism of them has been by people who are very intolerant of criticism of Israel.

Right, but where the anti semitism rears its head is when masses of folk shout about Israel's(very real)human rights abuses and land seizures but almost tottaly ignore similar situations.
There are other places in the world where countries are, often with wester bought weapons etc, taking land and shooting folk. Proportionately they are almost ignored.
Could it be because people think Isreal-Jews? I think so, many folk use the actions of the Israeli gov to attack Jews. That's anti semitism.

 

[WildCat]

I assume you'd categorise a culture as Arabic only if the people following it ar Arabic? How would you categorise the people as Arabic? By their Arabic culture? Or their race?

Arab isn't a race, it's an ethnicity. Racially they're white/Caucasian.

It is their culture that keeps their countries in a constant state of conflict.

 

[WildCat]

Interesting notion of "peaceful".

If you define "peace" as "absence of war".

 

[malbec]

Arab isn't a race, it's an ethnicity. Racially they're white/Caucasian.

It is their culture that keeps their countries in a constant state of conflict.

Others might argue that it is the US which engineers their conflict , providing the specifics are in line with official geo political strategy .
Which , of course , makes it sweetness and light from might .

 

[Ziggurat]

Others might argue that it is the US which engineers their conflict

And some people argue that the moon landing was a hoax. They're still wrong.

 

[skeptichaggis]

A Jewish community leader said a week or so ago that many folk use the current situation in isreal or palestine as cover for anti semitism. And he is right, a lot of folk who are anti Semites know they can openly bash the Jews by camouflaging it behind criticism of Israel. They don't care two hoots about Israel's human right violations, they don't give a monkeys for the folk displaced etc. They just say they do to bash Jewish folk. You rarely(ie never)see them marching in support of folk in new Guinea who are being driven from their land. Councils don't fly flags in solidarity with Guatemalan Mayans who for decades have had a(sometimes genocidal) multi generation long campaign of land seizures backed by western support waged on them.
Why? Why do the(admittedly awful)actions by the government of Israel treated differently. Is it really a coincidence that they are Jews? I don't think so, I think most folk use the situation in Palestine as a cover for anti semitism. I also think large chunks of the labour part leadership do so as well.

I furthermore think(know for certain) that Jeremy corbyn hates kittens, he doesn't think they are "productive" workers. There are no kittens on corbyns cabinet. Do you trust someone who hates kittens! Well do you?
Corbyn hangs out with David Cameron at the week end. They both have golden toilets. And they both hate kittens.

 

[The Don]

I furthermore think(know for certain) that Jeremy corbyn hates kittens, he doesn't think they are "productive" workers. There are no kittens on corbyns cabinet. Do you trust someone who hates kittens! Well do you?
Corbyn hangs out with David Cameron at the week end. They both have golden toilets. And they both hate kittens.

OTOH kittens like Corbyn

https://www.facebook.com/kittens4corbyn

 

[skeptichaggis]

OTOH kittens like Corbyn

https://www.facebook.com/kittens4corbyn

Its a con. Those "kittens" are actually small annoying poodles disguised. Corbyn and Cameron DO love poodles. They are heavily invested in the poodle industry and don't declare it so they can avoid paying tax. Their poodles have golden bowls and drink the tears of poverty stricken children.

Now you know. Its a well known propaganda tactic.

 

[CapelDodger]

You assume lots of things. Many of them are not true.

No doubt, but what about this one?

It's the cultural arabs who are unable to remain at peace. Ethnic arabs who have adopted western culture do just fine.

So the culture makes the Arab not the Arab the culture? That would make my assumption wrong.

So what is it that defines the type of culture that produces Arabs?

All of those cultures are messed up.

Are all messed-up cultures Arab cultures or is there some other factor?

Can you not do better than this continued attempt at straw men?

Your attempt to obfuscate your racism is not to much work on. Skinheads say they're not racists any more because they hunt down Muslims instead of Pakis; it's a cultural thing. I don't buy that either.

You're faced with the fact that 120 years ago a gang of Europeans decided to create their own dream society of racial purity and proper deference to Community Leaders in somebody else's land, with utter contempt for the people living in it, and started the Palestinian conflict. European Zionists did not defend themselves from Europe into possession of Palestine and its people's property. It was an act of agression, and the victimhood of Zionists is a sham.

Your response is to employ the Zionist Blood Libel on the Arabs to portay them as an innately agressive race who'd have come after the European Jews in the end if they if they hadn't got to them first.

That's what being Zionist reduces people to. It's moral poison.

 

[CapelDodger]

A Jewish community leader said a week or so ago that many folk use the current situation in isreal or palestine as cover for anti semitism. And he is right, a lot of folk who are anti Semites know they can openly bash the Jews by camouflaging it behind criticism of Israel.

If their criticism is of Israel how is it open Jew bashing? Or is it, more subtly, openly concealed Jew bashing made possible by critism of Israel?

Open Jew bashing requires the open bashing of Jews. I'd have though that was uncontroversial but I'm a simple chap.

You'll notice, if you watch for it, that the first response to a criticism of Israel and Zionism is very often "Many folk use critisim of Israel to conceal anti-semitism", and "Jewish Community Leaders" are not above the habit. Addressing the actual critism is at best a secondary concern: the primary concern is to get "anti-semitism" into the conversation.

Why? Why do the(admittedly awful)actions by the government of Israel treated differently.

Because Israel derives from us, and should be held to our standards. The Ashkenazi who creatd and rule it came from modern, developed, enlightened societies created over centuries, at great effort and sacrifice. And what they've produced there is a thoroughly degraded version, for which Netenyahu is the perfect symbol, really.

Is it really a coincidence that they are Jews? I don't think so, I think most folk use the situation in Palestine as a cover for anti semitism.

And why do you wish to think that?

I also think large chunks of the labour part leadership do so as well.

Same question.