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Bullish on Bernie: The Bernie Sanders 2016 Thread II

Since when has the truth or falseness of charges ever mattered? Aren't you the one complaining about how many people believe things about Clinton that aren't true?....
They matter with your false equivalency trying to compare the effect of negative campaigning against Sanders with the arguments used against Obama.

Your denial that Sanders has yet to be thoroughly attacked is not realistic. You are not being honest with yourself.
 
....Except that he's not losing quite as much as it might seem. In fact, after I'm really surprised no one has posted this yet, it seems that Clinton did not win Nevada after all:

Bernie Sanders Wins the Nevada Caucus After All

Can't wait to hear the spin on this one.
Spin? Really? You need spin to show a bunch of Bernie fanatics pulled a Ron Paul in NV?

Pretty sure no spin is needed. Clinton won and Sanders supporters (not sure how involved his campaign is in this— that will be interesting) are trying to still the election.

It's not becoming of someone campaigning how dishonest his competitor is.
 
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It's not becoming of someone campaigning how dishonest his competitor is.


Pointing out an opponent's dishonesty is not "becoming"? Seriously?

Are you going to tell me you don't like my "tone"?

And your comparing this to Ron Paul is what is dishonest. The Clinton supporters committed a violation of the bylaws to shut out Sanders voters, and were called on it. End of story.

I'd be laughing very hard at this if I wasn't so sick right now.
 
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It's clearly cherry picking to only pick the last 6 races in states with small delegate counts to talk about.

If I were a Democrat, I'd rather see my nominee winning small important states, than large irrelevant states, like Texas. Hillary won Texas. Yay.

And Washington has 101 delegates. Michigan has 147, so it's not like Bernie is only winning small states. Bernie is winning states that need to be won. Hillary's big wins are mostly coming in places Democrats don't have a prayer of winning: Alabama, Louisiana, Texas, South Carolina, Mississippi, and Georgia.

If not for the Deep South, Hillary would be losing.



People don't like her or trust her, which is why they keep voting for her?

Because her opponent is a 74 year old socialist. Duh. Despite the hypothetical match-up polling (which Bernie does better at), I would be shocked if the country elected Sanders. We're still a center-right country. The GOP, despite imploding on the national level, still controls Congress, most governorships, and most state legislatures. Hillary is a safe bet. The lesser of two evils against whatever loser the GOP nominates.

Also why they respond in polling that they will vote for her over every other likely candidates?

What, on the Democrat side? There's only one candidate there and see the above paragraph for why Hillary is beating him.

If you mean the GOP, it's because they're nuts. But Hillary (and Bernie) both lose to Kasich in hypothetical matchups. Hillary loses by more than Bernie.

But yes, the constant complaint is that Clinton is dishonest, without any evidence of dishonesty, and in spite of fact checking organizations pointing out that Clinton is the most honest candidate. Congratulations for falling for the GOP smear machine.

Except for managing to get herself investigated by the FBI, changing her story about classified emails, and dodging sniper fire. Remember when she said she and Bill left the White House "dead-broke"?

"A few weeks before they left the White House, the Clintons were able to muster a cash down payment of $855,000 and secure a $1.995 million mortgage. This hardly fits the common meaning of "dead broke."

We rate the claim Mostly False.
"
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...ry-clinton-says-she-and-bill-were-dead-broke/

And what lead to her claiming she was broke? Bill Clinton's legal fees! Remember that guy? The guy who lied to America and was disbarred from SOCTUS and had his law-license suspended? Who she just happens to be married to?

Remember when she said she tried to join the Marines (WO gave her two Pinocchios for that one)? That she was named after Sir Edmund Hillary? That all her grandparents were immigrants?

You Hillary supporters probably forget these little exaggerations (or aren't even aware of them in the first place), but a lot of people don't, and she does it a lot.

Hillary is the Brian Williams of politicians.

Losing, and let's be honest, losing badly does not make Sanders the better candidate.

If Sanders was losing badly, he wouldn't be in the middle of a winning streak, nor winning by huge 50+ margins. That streak will most likely continue with Wisconsin and Wyoming. He'll be going into New York with a lot of momentum, and her lead has dropped to 10, and it's still two weeks away.

Obama was the better candidate in 2008, and at this point he was only ahead 156 delegates. Clinton is ahead by over 700, and you keep claiming that she is barely beating him because he's won 5 of the last 6 contests with a combined win of delegates that will be wiped out by Clinton's win in the singular contest in NY.

At this point, in 2008, Hillary was losing to a black freshman senator whose middle name was Hussein. Nuff said. And at this point, she has a 10% lead in pledged delegates and her opponent is a 74 year old socialist.

A brilliant politician, by any measure.
 
Pointing out an opponent's dishonesty is not "becoming"? Seriously?

Are you going to tell me you don't like my "tone"?

And your comparing this to Ron Paul is what is dishonest. The Clinton supporters committed a violation of the bylaws to shut out Sanders voters, and were called on it. End of story.

I'd be laughing very hard at this if I wasn't so sick right now.
Wow, you exist in a different world than I do.


It's not becoming to complain about the thing you are also guilty of. For some bizarre reason you read that back as "Pointing out an opponent's dishonesty is not "becoming".

You complain constantly about straw men. This is a straw man.^


It's exactly what Ron Paul supporters did. Not sure how it is you think it has anything to do with shutting voters out. I do think you need to re-read the 'story'.
 
"Nearly 9,000 delegates were elected on caucus day in late February, but only 3,825 showed up to Saturday’s convention. An additional 915 elected alternates and 604 unelected alternates also turned out to support their favored candidate.

The final delegate count was 2,964 for Sanders and 2,386 for Clinton. That means the Sanders campaign will send 1,613 delegates to the state convention, while the Clinton campaign will send 1,298.
"
http://lasvegassun.com/news/2016/apr/02/sanders-wins-most-delegates-at-clark-county-conven/

Clinton's delegates didn't even bother showing up. That Hillary, what an awesome candidate. Anyone who can snatch defeat from the jaws of victory like this deserves a hat tip.
 
If I were a Democrat, I'd rather see my nominee winning small important states, than large irrelevant states, like Texas. Hillary won Texas. Yay.

I see that delegate math is not your strong suit.

And Washington has 101 delegates. Michigan has 147, so it's not like Bernie is only winning small states. Bernie is winning states that need to be won. Hillary's big wins are mostly coming in places Democrats don't have a prayer of winning: Alabama, Louisiana, Texas, South Carolina, Mississippi, and Georgia.

If not for the Deep South, Hillary would be losing.

If not for Clinton's vastly superior delegate totals, she would be losing. What an interesting position. Pretending that Ohio is in the deep south is silly. The fact of the matter is that Clinton also won big in swing states like Florida and Ohio, who will be key in the general.

Because her opponent is a 74 year old socialist. Duh. Despite the hypothetical match-up polling (which Bernie does better at), I would be shocked if the country elected Sanders. We're still a center-right country. The GOP, despite imploding on the national level, still controls Congress, most governorships, and most state legislatures. Hillary is a safe bet. The lesser of two evils against whatever loser the GOP nominates.

I'm not very impressed by Sanders polling better when he hasn't had any negative campaigning against him. Despite what the Sanders supporters believe, politicians go negative because it is usually effective, and I don't think Sanders would be immune to it.

What, on the Democrat side? There's only one candidate there and see the above paragraph for why Hillary is beating him.

If you mean the GOP, it's because they're nuts. But Hillary (and Bernie) both lose to Kasich in hypothetical matchups. Hillary loses by more than Bernie.

I mean every likely candidate, which includes Sanders, Trump, and Cruz. It is mathematically impossible for Kasich to win the nominations with delegates, so I don't consider him a likely candidate.

Which still leaves us with your claim that Clinton is a terrible candidate, yet she is a better candidate than the rest that are running.



Except for managing to get herself investigated by the FBI, changing her story about classified emails, and dodging sniper fire. Remember when she said she and Bill left the White House "dead-broke"?

"A few weeks before they left the White House, the Clintons were able to muster a cash down payment of $855,000 and secure a $1.995 million mortgage. This hardly fits the common meaning of "dead broke."

We rate the claim Mostly False.
"
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...ry-clinton-says-she-and-bill-were-dead-broke/

And what lead to her claiming she was broke? Bill Clinton's legal fees! Remember that guy? The guy who lied to America and was disbarred from SOCTUS and had his law-license suspended? Who she just happens to be married to?


Remember when she said she tried to join the Marines (WO gave her two Pinocchios for that one)? That she was named after Sir Edmund Hillary? That all her grandparents were immigrants?

You Hillary supporters probably forget these little exaggerations (or aren't even aware of them in the first place), but a lot of people don't, and she does it a lot.

Hillary is the Brian Williams of politicians.

I don't think claims of who she was named after, or that her grandparents were immigrants matter.

If Sanders was losing badly, he wouldn't be in the middle of a winning streak, nor winning by huge 50+ margins. That streak will most likely continue with Wisconsin and Wyoming. He'll be going into New York with a lot of momentum, and her lead has dropped to 10, and it's still two weeks away.

If? He is down by over 700 delegates! That is losing badly! Whoopdy doo, he won 13 delegates in Alaska, is that supposed to be impressive? If you had any understanding of the numbers, here, you would realize that a 10 point Clinton win in NY would virtually end Sanders' slim hopes.

At this point, in 2008, Hillary was losing to a black freshman senator whose middle name was Hussein. Nuff said. And at this point, she has a 10% lead in pledged delegates and her opponent is a 74 year old socialist.

A brilliant politician, by any measure.

At this point, she has a lead of over 700 delegates. That black freshman senator has shown himself to be a pretty capable politician, despite his middle name.
 
He's running as a Democrat. What are you talking about? You didn't even answer my question.

No he's not. Bernie is not a member of the Democratic party, hence the thread:
Did Sanders benefit from the structure of the Democratic Party without paying in?

Sanders sometimes refers to himself as a Democrat, Independent, and Democratic Socialist, but he's a registered independent, so yes, a non-Democrat has almost a thousand pledged delegates in the Democratic primary.

Has that ever even happened before?

According to his website, Sanders is certainly running as a Democrat: "Bernie Sanders is a Democratic candidate for President of the United States."

These denials of the obvious are certainly interesting.
 
Seriously Fudbucker, how do you think Sanders got on the Democratic ballots in closed primary states?
 
Clinton is a terrible candidate, Sanders is a good one.

First of all, my comment was directed solely on the quote I made of the other poster.

Second, could you tell me why she's terrible and he's not? I of course prefer him over her, but I wouldn't say she's terrible. Trump is terrible, in my view. Cruz as well.

The problem that you're ignoring is that Clinton has the establishment Democratic party political machine supporting her, and a whole lot of very rich people contributing to her campaign.

Par for the course. How does that make her terrible?

Sanders, by contrast, only has a grass-roots public support keeping his campaign going, with nearly the entirety of the establishment against him; and he's still threatening to upset her chances at the nomination.

Someone could -- and will I'm sure -- claim that this just shows that money in politics isn't all that effective.

If Sanders and Clinton were on an equal footing with regard to fundraising and party support, this contest would already be over, and Sanders would have won it.

Do you have any sort of evidence for this?
 
I see that delegate math is not your strong suit.

:rolleyes:



If not for Clinton's vastly superior delegate totals, she would be losing.

Drop the super-delegate BS. It's stupid. We already know Clinton has the party apparatus behind her. We also know if Bernie wins with pledged delegates, the super-delegates will follow suit. There would be chaos if Bernie beats her soundly enough in the remaining primaries to pull ahead in pledged delegates and the DNC robs him of the nomination.

Do you support stripping Sanders of a victory if he's ahead of Clinton in pledged delegates? If no, then the super-delegates are meaningless. If yes, then you support an undemocratic process, and people shouldn't want anything to do with your party or the sleazy candidate who would agree to be substituted in Bernie's place.

There's one sure way for Democrats to blow this thing, and that is for superdelegates to finagle a Clinton victory. For a party that puts so much emphasis on winning the popular vote, for them to strip their own popularly elected nominee of the nomination would ruin the party, and hand the GOP the Whitehouse.

Clinton has a 10% lead in pledged delegates, and those are the only ones that count.

What an interesting position. Pretending that Ohio is in the deep south is silly. The fact of the matter is that Clinton also won big in swing states like Florida and Ohio, who will be key in the general.

I'm not pretending Ohio is in the Deep South. I'm saying Clinton is ahead in pledged delegates because of victories in states the Dems cannot win, like Texas. If you took the GOP red states out of Hillary's column, she would be losing. That she's only ahead of Bernie because of the Deep South does not bode well for the general. A good candidate wouldn't have to depend on unwinnable general election states for their lead.



I'm not very impressed by Sanders polling better when he hasn't had any negative campaigning against him. Despite what the Sanders supporters believe, politicians go negative because it is usually effective, and I don't think Sanders would be immune to it.

At last, a fair point. No, Sanders is not immune to it. But would he take a tumble to where Hillary is at with her horrible favorability and trustworthiness numbers? I don't believe he would. He's authentic, and at heart, a nice guy. Clinton is a sleazy politician who will do/say anything to win. She exists in a cloud of mendacity, like the dirt that swirls around the Peanuts character Pigpen. And the GOP have not trained their guns on Hillary yet. They're in their own civil war, so her numbers could (and will) nosedive even further.


I mean every likely candidate, which includes Sanders, Trump, and Cruz. It is mathematically impossible for Kasich to win the nominations with delegates, so I don't consider him a likely candidate.

Math doesn't mean anything in a contested convention. Nobody will have a majority of delegates, so anyone can win. I can see a path for Kasich. He's electable, and the only one who beats Bernie and Hillary in match-ups. The GOP may be so determined to win the Whitehouse, they'll pick Kasich.

Which still leaves us with your claim that Clinton is a terrible candidate, yet she is a better candidate than the rest that are running.

Yeah, she's top-notch. Who are the rest again? Trump, Cruz, and an old socialist? That's some competition there.


I don't think claims of who she was named after, or that her grandparents were immigrants matter.

I'm sure you don't, but people who aren't slavishly devoted to her actually DO pay attention to Hillary's frequent lies and exaggerations. Why do you think Brian Williams lost his spot as NBC's news anchor? Why do you think Clinton's honesty and likeability numbers are so bad? When she's not dodging sniper fire, or responding to questions about the FBI investigating her, she's making **** up about herself. It plays into the narrative she will do/say anything to get elected. Which she will.

If? He is down by over 700 delegates! That is losing badly! Whoopdy doo, he won 13 delegates in Alaska, is that supposed to be impressive?

Again, stop with the superdelegates. They can (and would) change their vote if Bernie gets a majority of pledged delegates. Hillary is 10% ahead in the delegates that matter, and Bernie will chip at that in the next two states. He only needs to win New York by 4 points to stay on the path to nomination, and Clinton's lead there is falling.

If you had any understanding of the numbers, here, you would realize that a 10 point Clinton win in NY would virtually end Sanders' slim hopes.

No, because he could beat her in California by 25 points. He's beat her by bigger margins before. This won't be over until California, and even then it probably won't be over.

You forget that the backdrop to all this is the ongoing FBI investigation. Clinton will not have this sewn up until after the convention or the FBI concludes it's investigations and doesn't recommend charges (or issues a "slap on the wrist" statement).

The FBI is not investigating her for a lark, or part of some "vast right wing" conspiracy. We don't know what the FBI has uncovered. There is a real chance the FBI will recommend charges. The DoJ knows if it doesn't indict, there will likely be a series of high-level resignations, like when Nixon fired Archibald Cox, so there is a real chance Clinton could be indicted. If she does, do you think the Democrats are going to pick someone who's currently being indicted by the DoJ, especially by a Democratic administration's DoJ. Or will they take their chances on someone who isn't on trial?



At this point, she has a lead of over 700 delegates. That black freshman senator has shown himself to be a pretty capable politician, despite his middle name.

Actually, Obama is one of the luckiest politicians ever. He won his Senate seat when the GOP helicoptered in Alan Keyes after Obama's opponent got involved in a sex scandal 86 days before the election. Then Obama got to beat up on Hillary, with her pro-Iraq vote hanging off her like an Albatross. Then the GOP went nuts and picked an absolutely certifiable moron for McCain's VP. THEN, after the GOP's 2012 KlownKar show, they picked sneering plutocrat Romney, who ran one of the worst campaigns in modern history.

Obama has never really faced a tough opponent. He's been an OK president, but to say he's been very very lucky is an understatement.
 
Seriously Fudbucker, how do you think Sanders got on the Democratic ballots in closed primary states?

Because he's been calling himself a Democrat lately and is lucky enough to live in a state that doesn't provide party preference in voter registration. If Sanders had been the independent-registered Connecticut Senator (which does have party identification voter registration), do you think he would have made it on those ballots?

And the last time a non-Democrat won the Democrat primaries was 1872, when Republican Horace Greely got the nod. And I have no idea how a Republican got on the ballot in those primaries, so maybe anyone can, if you meet the filing deadlines, or maybe they've changed the rules.

My point, ironically, has been made by Clinton:

"Hillary Clinton wants voters in Wisconsin to know that she has been a Democrat for much of her adult life. Why? Bernie Sanders hasn't been.

Sanders, however, has never been a member of the Democratic Party and is one of two independents in the United States Senate.
"
http://www.cnn.com/2016/04/02/politics/hillary-clinton-bernie-sanders-democrat-wisconsin/
 
Fudbucker, you don't seem to know what you are posting.

We all know Sanders was an Independent until 2015 when he changed his registration to the Democratic Party in order to run for POTUS as the Democratic Party nominee.

Why you keep insisting he is not a registered Democrat is beyond silly. And the Democratic ballots I asked you about in the closed primary states had nothing to do with Vermont.
 
Fudbucker, you don't seem to know what you are posting.

We all know Sanders was an Independent until 2015 when he changed his registration to the Democratic Party in order to run for POTUS as the Democratic Party nominee.

Why you keep insisting he is not a registered Democrat is beyond silly. And the Democratic ballots I asked you about in the closed primary states had nothing to do with Vermont.

Sanders is now a registered Democrat? Link?
 
Drop the super-delegate BS. It's stupid. We already know Clinton has the party apparatus behind her. We also know if Bernie wins with pledged delegates, the super-delegates will follow suit. There would be chaos if Bernie beats her soundly enough in the remaining primaries to pull ahead in pledged delegates and the DNC robs him of the nomination.

The super delegates are part of the Democratic nomination process. Whether or not you think they are stupid, their votes count. We all know that Sanders isn't winning with pledged delegates, nor will he. Well, most of us understand that a lead of over 200 pledged delegates is almost impossible for Sanders to overcome. Some people apparently are pretty impressed with wins in tiny states with few delegates, and so think Sanders is doing much better than the actual numbers show.

Do you support stripping Sanders of a victory if he's ahead of Clinton in pledged delegates? If no, then the super-delegates are meaningless. If yes, then you support an undemocratic process, and people shouldn't want anything to do with your party or the sleazy candidate who would agree to be substituted in Bernie's place.

It doesn't matter, because I'm not delusional enough to think that Sanders is ahead of Clinton in pledged delegates.

There's one sure way for Democrats to blow this thing, and that is for superdelegates to finagle a Clinton victory. For a party that puts so much emphasis on winning the popular vote, for them to strip their own popularly elected nominee of the nomination would ruin the party, and hand the GOP the Whitehouse.

Clinton also has over 2.5 million more votes than Sanders, so not only is she winning the pledged delegates, but she is winning the popular vote.

Clinton has a 10% lead in pledged delegates, and those are the only ones that count.

No, despite your distaste for them, the super delegates count.

I'm not pretending Ohio is in the Deep South. I'm saying Clinton is ahead in pledged delegates because of victories in states the Dems cannot win, like Texas. If you took the GOP red states out of Hillary's column, she would be losing. That she's only ahead of Bernie because of the Deep South does not bode well for the general.

What an astoundingly unhelpful (or misleading) way of looking at the numbers. If we took away a candidates wins, they would no longer be winning. If we took away Sanders wins in states that will go blue and vote for Clinton anyway, he would have almost zero delegates.

A good candidate wouldn't have to depend on unwinnable general election states for their lead.

A good candidate can win not just the reliably blue states, but the swing states necessary to win a general election. Clinton won 5 out of 7 of those. Sanders could only win 2.

At last, a fair point. No, Sanders is not immune to it. But would he take a tumble to where Hillary is at with her horrible favorability and trustworthiness numbers? I don't believe he would. He's authentic, and at heart, a nice guy. Clinton is a sleazy politician who will do/say anything to win. She exists in a cloud of mendacity, like the dirt that swirls around the Peanuts character Pigpen. And the GOP have not trained their guns on Hillary yet. They're in their own civil war, so her numbers could (and will) nosedive even further.

You can only see that one poll, can't you? How sad.

Math doesn't mean anything in a contested convention. Nobody will have a majority of delegates, so anyone can win. I can see a path for Kasich. He's electable, and the only one who beats Bernie and Hillary in match-ups. The GOP may be so determined to win the Whitehouse, they'll pick Kasich.

We have to get to a contested convention, first.

Yeah, she's top-notch. Who are the rest again? Trump, Cruz, and an old socialist? That's some competition there.

Ok, so every single candidate is terrible? What an unhelpful way of looking at things.


I'm sure you don't, but people who aren't slavishly devoted to her actually DO pay attention to Hillary's frequent lies and exaggerations. Why do you think Brian Williams lost his spot as NBC's news anchor? Why do you think Clinton's honesty and likeability numbers are so bad? When she's not dodging sniper fire, or responding to questions about the FBI investigating her, she's making **** up about herself. It plays into the narrative she will do/say anything to get elected. Which she will.

What does Brian Williams have to do with the candidacy? But please, do keep dredging up minutia as though it is important (gosh, how could I vote for someone who claims their parents named her after Sir Edmund Hillary? That is such an integral part of being a good President!). You are doing a good job of showing who, exactly, is slavishly devoted to Clinton.

Again, stop with the superdelegates. They can (and would) change their vote if Bernie gets a majority of pledged delegates. Hillary is 10% ahead in the delegates that matter, and Bernie will chip at that in the next two states. He only needs to win New York by 4 points to stay on the path to nomination, and Clinton's lead there is falling.

Again, the super delegates count, and again, Sanders doesn't have a majority of pledged delegates. I'm not sure what numbers you are looking at, but Sanders has to win NY by 16 4 (wrong number) points to have a path to the nomination, and Clinton has maintained consistent double digit leads in polling. Add in his necessary wins in PA and MD while his numbers there have never been good, and your "momentum" is sunk. It's worth remembering, also, that NY, PA, MD, and CA are all states that are not in the south, and all states that Clinton holds and has held convincing double digit leads in the polling.

No, because he could beat her in California by 25 points. He's beat her by bigger margins before. This won't be over until California, and even then it probably won't be over.

This claim is delusional. Sanders is not going to win CA period, much less by 25 or more points. He can only pull of 25 point or better wins in small, non diverse states with few delegates that are holding a caucus.

You forget that the backdrop to all this is the ongoing FBI investigation. Clinton will not have this sewn up until after the convention or the FBI concludes it's investigations and doesn't recommend charges (or issues a "slap on the wrist" statement).

The FBI is not investigating her for a lark, or part of some "vast right wing" conspiracy. We don't know what the FBI has uncovered. There is a real chance the FBI will recommend charges. The DoJ knows if it doesn't indict, there will likely be a series of high-level resignations, like when Nixon fired Archibald Cox, so there is a real chance Clinton could be indicted. If she does, do you think the Democrats are going to pick someone who's currently being indicted by the DoJ, especially by a Democratic administration's DoJ. Or will they take their chances on someone who isn't on trial?

Ah, the pipe dream of the FBI indictment. Not very likely, my friend.

Actually, Obama is one of the luckiest politicians ever. He won his Senate seat when the GOP helicoptered in Alan Keyes after Obama's opponent got involved in a sex scandal 86 days before the election. Then Obama got to beat up on Hillary, with her pro-Iraq vote hanging off her like an Albatross. Then the GOP went nuts and picked an absolutely certifiable moron for McCain's VP. THEN, after the GOP's 2012 KlownKar show, they picked sneering plutocrat Romney, who ran one of the worst campaigns in modern history.

Obama has never really faced a tough opponent. He's been an OK president, but to say he's been very very lucky is an understatement.

Obama "beat up" Clinton with a lead of 156 super and pledged delegates combined, yet Clinton's lead of over 200 pledged delegates alone, over 700 combined, means she is barely winning? Can you not see your discrepancy, here?
 
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