Adnan Syed - Serial / Undisclosed

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Ampulla of Vater said:
I did not say it was not moved after being prone in a different position. I said the way the body was buried is consistent with anterior lividity. Only the bottom half of her body was on its right side. The top half was face down.

I am not completely anonymous. Ask your pals Charlie Wilkes, who I met in person in July 2014 in Seattle and Halkides who is a Facebook friend of mine. It doesn't look like they are into the Syed case, based on the postings at IA, but if either of them asked me for the police file I would provide it to them.

Now you can stop with the fallacious arguments, okay?
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As with Lobato case, you are making claims which you are not backing up, calling people names, and insulting people.
 
Desert Fox said:
Let us try this for you. . . .

1. Do you admit that Jay's testimony is pretty poor?
Does not really fit the crime scene and events real well? Not real coherent either?

2. Adnan appears to have had a pretty busy day that day. Probably going to track. It is almost definite that he went to the mosque that that day. Spent time with his family, etc.

3. After school, is there anybody (with the exception of Jay) who saw Adnan with Hae or with her car? Basically, can you place them together at all after school without Jay?

4. We cannot place Don and Hae together either but he appears to have a falsified alibi. In addition, he appears to have simply disappeared until something like 1 am the morning after Hae disappeared. We have times where we do not have Adnan with others (possibly counting Jay) but not for anything like the length which we have Don.

All together, Don is a much better suspect than Adnan. It probably was a spur of the moment murder, nothing planned. Once it happened, panic set in.
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For Gawd's sake it was Patrick. I thought everyone knew that?

In such a situation faking an alibi isn't suspicious, merely intelligent.
 
Just to clarify, he faked an alibi before it was known, by anybody other than the killer(s), that that she was actually dead.
 
Desert Fox said:
As with Lobato case, you are making claims which you are not backing up, calling people names, and insulting people.
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I did none of this.


ETA: In fact, I am done with you. You can't back up any of your claims with anything other than the Undisclosed bunch. Back up what you say with the evidence or the transcripts or something other than someone who is personally vested in the outcome, someone who has put their reputation on the line for a family friend. While it is perhaps honorable (at least when done without the 4-letter words Rabs is so fond of) she and her buddies are not an unbiased source.
 
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Desert Fox said:
Just to clarify, he faked an alibi before it was known, by anybody other than the killer(s), that that she was actually dead.
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Well Jay and possibly Adnan knew she was dead and Adnan tried to fake an alibi (according to Jay).
Faking an alibi may mean nothing more than you know you might be a suspect and you are intimidated by a no-snitching culture.
 
query grind said:
Well Jay and possibly Adnan knew she was dead and Adnan tried to fake an alibi (according to Jay).
Faking an alibi may mean nothing more than you know you might be a suspect and you are intimidated by a no-snitching culture.
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Actually as far as I am aware, there is no actual evidence either Andan or Jay actually knew that Hae was dead until the body was found and reported by the police.

The thing about Don is that he had a fake time sheet showing him to have worked the day of her murder. The reason why there is a problem is that the employee number was wrong and it has been confirmed by multiple Luxotica employees that even if you are working a different store, you are still working under the same employee number. It was one that Don only ever used during the week of Hae's murder.

Only store managers and above can override the system and it has to be done during the pay period (not weeks or months after the fact). The manager of the store he was suppose to have worked at when Hae was murdered was the one which his mother was the manager.

According to a former FBI and former Scotland Yard behavior analysts, Jay's testimony appear to be coached. As such, I think we can basically just throw it out. The cell phone evidence is at best questionable and more likely just worthless.

Based on all that, between Don and Adnan, Don is just as likely to have murdered Hae and perhaps even more likely.
 
Desert Fox said:
Actually as far as I am aware, there is no actual evidence either Andan or Jay actually knew that Hae was dead until the body was found and reported by the police.
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There is this wee thing called a confession.
According to a former FBI and former Scotland Yard behavior analysts, Jay's testimony appear to be coached. As such, I think we can basically just throw it out.
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Jim Clemente is a hopeless fraud. If you want to throw out Jay's testimony in toto that is up to you.
No one seriously interested in solving this crime would do so.
 
Desert Fox said:
I will put it very simply, according to the innocence project 1/4 people later exonerated by DNA made false confessions
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Fine, but this is 1/4 of quite a small number considering overall convictions. And doesn't account for what stage in the process they made false confessions (showing remorse will result in a reduced sentence) - or if these confessions were 100% false and didn't contain substantial elements of facts. It is one thing to say false confessions exist, it is another to just dismiss any confession as 100% false when it is inconvenient.

In any case if Jay's confession is false then we don't know if Don has an alibi for the murder or not, because our timing of the murder has been determined by Jay's confession.

So effectively you are using Jay's confession to show Don faked an alibi for the time of the murder, then turning around and saying Jay knows nothing about what took place
 
Let us start with a simple reason why I think Jay's testimony is false.

He claims that he could see the body being buried because of moonlight reflected off the snow. The problem with that is simple, historic evidence is that all the snow had melted.

Let us lay that aside though. It gets worse. . . There was no friggin moon out. It did not rise until something like 4 am and I believe is was something like 3% illuminated when it did come out.

There no excuse that maybe the snow did not melt as quickly under the trees. The moon does not rise at the wrong time.

Look, there are plenty more arguments I can argue but just choosing one that I can think of - I was one who pointed out the moon to Bob Ruff so it sticks out. Astronomy is a hobby of mine.
 
Desert Fox said:
Let us start with a simple reason why I think Jay's testimony is false.

He claims that he could see the body being buried because of moonlight reflected off the snow. The problem with that is simple, historic evidence is that all the snow had melted.

Let us lay that aside though. It gets worse. . . There was no friggin moon out. It did not rise until something like 4 am and I believe is was something like 3% illuminated when it did come out.

There no excuse that maybe the snow did not melt as quickly under the trees. The moon does not rise at the wrong time.

Look, there are plenty more arguments I can argue but just choosing one that I can think of - I was one who pointed out the moon to Bob Ruff so it sticks out. Astronomy is a hobby of mine.
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Susan Simpson had that up on her blog on the 24th January 2015.

I don't see it is particularly significant since in context Jay was just explaining that there was enough light to complete the task.
Urick: What was the light like?

Jay: It was pretty dark but the moon was out, and I remember there was little bits of snow on the ground. So you could see a little bit. It wasn’t too bad.
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You would have to do a site visit after dark on a moonless night to see if this was impossible or not. Jay remembers there was enough light to "see a bit" and assumes it was moonlight.

At best it is only very weak evidence, given over a year later, towards a false confession.
 
It was not a year later at this point but something like a month (maybe two on the outside) when he was interrogated by the police.

Another hallmark of a false confession is when it changes based on further question. You can see that with the confusion that Jay seems to talk like they are both in one car when Adnan would have been in Hae's car. The "Trunk Pop" drifts all over the city. He changes locations of where calls are made based on reading of the cell phone evidence. The latest is that during interrogation, he claimed that the burial was at around 18:00 and now he moved it to 01:00

Other items is that he claims to have used shovels to dig the burial. Odds are very strong it was a hand burial with only debris used in the burial. Let us say that he did bring shovels, don't you think he would have commented on just how hard it was to dig up the ground as well? Edit: The soil is suppose to eb really rocky in that area and the bedrock may even be close to the surface. In addition, the ground might have also been frozen.

You might want to watch "The Confessions"
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/the-confessions/
 
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Desert Fox said:
It was not a year later at this point but something like a month (maybe two on the outside) when he was interrogated by the police.

Another hallmark of a false confession is when it changes based on further question. You can see that with the confusion that Jay seems to talk like they are both in one car when Adnan would have been in Hae's car. The "Trunk Pop" drifts all over the city. He changes locations of where calls are made based on reading of the cell phone evidence. The latest is that during interrogation, he claimed that the burial was at around 18:00 and now he moved it to 01:00

Other items is that he claims to have used shovels to dig the burial. Odds are very strong it was a hand burial with only debris used in the burial. Let us say that he did bring shovels, don't you think he would have commented on just how hard it was to dig up the ground as well? Edit: The soil is suppose to eb really rocky in that area and the bedrock may even be close to the surface. In addition, the ground might have also been frozen.

You might want to watch "The Confessions"
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Then again I might not, I am not disputing the existence of false confessions, just disputing the application here to 100% dismiss everything Jay said. You engaging in falsum in uno, falsum in omnibus.
Clearly Jay is an unreliable witness, but there is no lengthy aggressive interrogation that would account for him coming up with such a detailed, albeit unreliable, account.

Don is an unreliable witness, Jay is an unreliable witness, Adnan is an unreliable witness, therefore obviously it must have been Patrick
 
Virtually all of the false confession literature supports that detailed unreliable confessions come from those actually doing the interrogation. To quote another case "She buckled and made an admission of facts we knew were correct."

Edit: Also back at the article I originally posted
http://www.innocenceproject.org/causes-wrongful-conviction/false-confessions-or-admissions

In some false confession cases, details of the crime are inadvertently communicated to a suspect by police during questioning. Later, when a suspect knows these details, the police take the knowledge as evidence of guilt.
 
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Desert Fox said:
Virtually all of the false confession literature supports that detailed unreliable confessions come from those actually doing the interrogation. To quote another case "She buckled and made an admission of facts we knew were correct."

Edit: Also back at the article I originally posted
http://www.innocenceproject.org/causes-wrongful-conviction/false-confessions-or-admissions

In some false confession cases, details of the crime are inadvertently communicated to a suspect by police during questioning. Later, when a suspect knows these details, the police take the knowledge as evidence of guilt.
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Again, you don't have anything suggesting it is a false confession - such as a retraction - you just assume it because otherwise you can't say Don killed Hae. This is known as confirmation bias.

However, when Jay says things like this:
" Anything that’s going to make him innocent doesn’t involve me. Hae was dead before she got to my house."
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This suggests he may well be an unreliable witness, he may have falsely implicated Adnan, but also he did see Hae's body and it suggests there may well be a narrative that exonerates Adnan, but he is confident that it won't implicate him any further than his already admitted role as a bystander. I don't see any suggestion of a 100% false confession

Did I mention Patrick already?
 
Why do you think he saw her body? What makes you think that he stated anything which could not have simply came from the police?

As to why he has not recanted, pretty simple. He is riding a tiger and afraid to get off. Somehow he managed to get through this without any jail time. He changes his story too much and suddenly find himself in the jaws of the tiger.

His defense attorney believes that without the deal, he would have been facing murder changes himself in the county (not city) of Baltimore, which at the time tended to seek the death penalty and had a heavy conservative white population.
 
query grind said:
Again, you don't have anything suggesting it is a false confession - such as a retraction - you just assume it because otherwise you can't say Don killed Hae. This is known as confirmation bias.

However, when Jay says things like this:

This suggests he may well be an unreliable witness, he may have falsely implicated Adnan, but also he did see Hae's body and it suggests there may well be a narrative that exonerates Adnan, but he is confident that it won't implicate him any further than his already admitted role as a bystander. I don't see any suggestion of a 100% false confession

Did I mention Patrick already?
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Not to mention that on 2/27 the police show up at Jen P.'s house. She tells the police that Hae had been strangled. This tidbit was not previously public knowledge. Jen gets mad at Jay when the police want to talk to her and Jay tells her to "Send them to me."

This is how the police end up interviewing Jay. If Jay falsely confessed, why would Jen know anything about the murder at all before Jay is even interviewed?

Oh, I know. Jen was in cahoots with Don!
 
I asked a number of people who knew nothing about about the case, coworkers and friends. I asked them if they heard a young woman had been murdered how they would guess she had been murdered, many guessed "strangled."

I don't understand why this is so special because it is a common method of murder with respect to young women. Just a year earlier, Michelle Moore-Bosko had been strangled (and stabbed) in Norfolk.

Edit: I should add that leaves aside the possibility that the police may have accidentally (being charitable) told her themselves.

Edit-2:
http://www.tdcaa.com/journal/closer-look-strangulation-cases
Since 2011, I have reviewed more than 1,000 strangulation cases in Travis County and tried a variety of them (from misdemeanor assault to sexual assault and capital murder) to juries. I have spoken to dozens of victims, and three things have been constant—and a fourth often makes prosecution difficult or impossible. One, when asked what she thought was going to happen during the strangulation, the victim almost always responds, “I thought I was going to die.” Two, the majority of the cases have no visible injury, or if officers documented anything, it was “slight redness” to a victim’s neck not visible in a photograph. Three, offense reports often provide very little evidence or follow-up investigation of strangulation beyond the victim reporting to the officer, “I couldn’t breathe.” And fourth, the victim who was in such fear the night of the offense has often shifted into a much different witness by the time the case gets to the courtroom.
 
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