80 Years of Subtle Sexism

[The Big Dog]

When no data is available, anecdote is all there is.

I didn't ignore it. I disagreed. He-Man and the superhero physique is a male fantasy for themselves, not a female fantasy of males. You may call my assertion of that "anecdote", but I don't see any evidence for the opposite forthcoming either.

Your claim, your burden.

 

[rustypouch]

I didn't ignore it. I disagreed. He-Man and the superhero physique is a male fantasy for themselves, not a female fantasy of males. You may call my assertion of that "anecdote", but I don't see any evidence for the opposite forthcoming either.

Do all those romance novels with a ripped, shirtless dude on the cover not count?

 

[John Jones]

When no data is available, anecdote is all there is.



I didn't ignore it. I disagreed. He-Man and the superhero physique is a male fantasy for themselves, not a female fantasy of males. You may call my assertion of that "anecdote", but I don't see any evidence for the opposite forthcoming either.

Have you ever heard of the concept of The Burden Of Proof?

 

[Puppycow]

When no data is available, anecdote is all there is.



I didn't ignore it. I disagreed. He-Man and the superhero physique is a male fantasy for themselves, not a female fantasy of males. You may call my assertion of that "anecdote", but I don't see any evidence for the opposite forthcoming either.

I don't know how scientific it is, but there is some data:

http://aplus.com/a/women-in-the-uk-...ld-think-?utm_campaign=i102&utm_source=a11303

Apparently women actually prefer what they call the "boy-next-door" physique (looks a lot like a "dad bod" to me) rather than a very physically fit specimen. Pictures at the link. Men prefer (and imagine that women prefer) the more physically fit body.

 

[Stout]

I appreciate being refreshing. You're the second (?) person on this thread alone however who assumed I held a point of view based on my sharing this link. I'm not sure that I did elucidate an opinion. I shared some factual evidence (sexist comments that have been made to me). That's it.

My opinion on this topic is long and involved. I haven't typed that up for this thread.

I figured you for a full on SJW who was going to come on with women think and act the way they do only because men make them and I figured your use of the word "people" in the OP was a tacit admission that, yes, some of those things women do say to each other.

That's why I needed your working definition of sexism. Once I got it I came to the conclusion that we have no disagreement.

Women get sexist statements, men get sexists statements, life goes on and nobody needs to run for a safe space.

 

[Delvo]

Do all those romance novels with a ripped, shirtless dude on the cover not count?

There's a huge difference between them and the Masters Of The Universe toys (or a lot of other drawings of characters in swords-&-sorcery settings. The guys on the covers of women's books and posters for teenage girls' walls and such have muscles that are easily visible but not nearly that large. They're actually rather small and lean by comparison. They key is not the size but the visibility (which means getting fat & water out of the way; they can block the view even of very large muscles).

 

[rustypouch]

There's a huge difference between them and the Masters Of The Universe toys (or a lot of other drawings of characters in swords-&-sorcery settings. The guys on the covers of women's books and posters for teenage girls' walls and such have muscles that are easily visible but not nearly that large. They're actually rather small and lean by comparison. They key is not the size but the visibility (which means getting fat & water out of the way; they can block the view even of very large muscles).

Similar to Barbie dolls, where the proportions are exaggerated?

And with either, why would companies push something that wasn't profitable?

 

[Roger Ramjets]

I don't know how scientific it is, but there is some data

But apart from that you got nothing, right?

Someone claimed that women don't prefer the superhero physique - but us men all know that they do! How do we know? Because we are the knowledgeable ones, the smart ones, the men! We know what women want better than they know themselves! So you will have to supply a lot more than just one flawed study to prove that we are wrong.

How do we it know was flawed? They asked women what they thought. Women constantly change their minds and never really know what they want. If only they had just asked the men...

 

[Tsukasa Buddha]

You people are all too old. It is Bratz dolls and Minions these days.

 

[Modified]

Someone claimed that women don't prefer the superhero physique - but us men all know that they do!

The men with that physique know that they don't, in general. Some of the women who do prefer it though, really really prefer it. Same goes for having really long hair or being covered with tattoos. It's a fine trade-off for a young man, if you ask me. I'd go with the long hair though - you can always cut it.

 

[Roger Ramjets]

why would companies push something that wasn't profitable?

If kids really liked that stuff they wouldn't have to push it.

Fact is, advertising executives decide what we will like, then push it onto us even when we don't (using the market-proven principle that we don't know what we like - we like what we know). And the vast majority of those executives are men. Men deciding that boys will like grossly over-muscled he-men dolls while girls will like grossly undernourished barbies.

 

[Tsukasa Buddha]

If kids really liked that stuff they wouldn't have to push it.

Fact is, advertising executives decide what we will like, then push it onto us even when we don't (using the market-proven principle that we don't know what we like - we like what we know). And the vast majority of those executives are men. Men deciding that boys will like grossly over-muscled he-men dolls while girls will like grossly undernourished barbies.

I find this narrative simplistic and unsubstantiated. Evidence?

 

[Roger Ramjets]

Evidence?

Mattel profit falls as Barbie sales decline again

Christopher Sinclair, Mattel's chief executive since April, has been trying to boost morale at a company where the creative culture has struggled to come up with hit products in recent years...

Mr. Sinclair is leaning on a top lieutenant, Richard Dickson, to reinvigorate the creative team...

A major problem has been Barbie, one of Mattel's most profitable brands that has fallen on tough times as young girls have gravitated to other dolls, like those based on the hit Disney movie, Frozen.

You see (according to Mattel), the only reason girls have lost interest in Barbie that some other company has better advertising - and they're probably right!

 

[Cain]

Your claim, your burden.

It's not a controversial claim. At all. While the "sexiest" man today is more muscular than Paul Newman, he's still not built like a champion bodybuilder, which is a look women find extreme and scary. The Ahnold Shwarzenegger thing appeals primarily to men. What's most noticeable about the above side-by-side images is how gay the loincloth-wearing swordsman looks. Plus he has the gayest name ever.

So why do many, many boys and men view aspire to level of muscularity that exceeds female survey responses. I think there are a few reasons. My own hypothesis is that while most women may genuinely like "dad bod," the most physically attractive women generally desire physically fit men (however, in terms of purely physical attraction triggers, height matters more than anything else). Strength aspirations may have something to do with a desire to dominate other men/rivals, though I suspect an even more compelling reason is the hope that it will deter others from "messing with me." Then there's the stuff about how women do not really know what they want so you should ignore most of what they say.

 

[Darat]

...snip..

I didn't ignore it. I disagreed. He-Man and the superhero physique is a male fantasy for themselves, not a female fantasy of males. You may call my assertion of that "anecdote", but I don't see any evidence for the opposite forthcoming either.

I'm going to disagree, when they were originally created I think you may have had a point but both now represent outdated ideas of beauty.

And it is clear that when women are in charge of marketing products aimed at women they will create caricatures of males to appeal to their target demographic that must have the same effect on young males as the Barbies do for young girls (if the argument about the Barbies and the like are correct).

 

[P.J. Denyer]

I don't know how scientific it is, but there is some data:

http://aplus.com/a/women-in-the-uk-...ld-think-?utm_campaign=i102&utm_source=a11303

Apparently women actually prefer what they call the "boy-next-door" physique (looks a lot like a "dad bod" to me) rather than a very physically fit specimen. Pictures at the link. Men prefer (and imagine that women prefer) the more physically fit body.

A similar study on female bodyshapes would be interesting, women don't want He-Man, do men really want Barbie?

 

[TragicMonkey]

Okay, I concede. Clearly women prefer men with hugely built physiques. That explains why Dolph Lundren, Arnold Swartzenegger, and John Cena have all had glittering careers as widely-accepted sex symbols and scrawny men like George Clooney, Tom Cruise, Liam Neeson, and Richard Gere are so rarely mentioned by straight women as being any sort of sexual ideal.

 

[Ziggurat]

Okay, I concede. Clearly women prefer men with hugely built physiques. That explains why Dolph Lundren, Arnold Swartzenegger, and John Cena have all had glittering careers as widely-accepted sex symbols and scrawny men like George Clooney, Tom Cruise, Liam Neeson, and Richard Gere are so rarely mentioned by straight women as being any sort of sexual ideal.

First, none of those guys is particularly skinny, but more importantly, they aren't fat.

Guess how many Hollywood actresses are proportioned like Barbie?

None.

 

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Speaking of Hollywood, what feat did Kirstie Alley perform in a movie that most men in that role had failed to do?

 

[Magrat]

I figured you for a full on SJW who was going to come on with women think and act the way they do only because men make them and I figured your use of the word "people" in the OP was a tacit admission that, yes, some of those things women do say to each other.

That's why I needed your working definition of sexism. Once I got it I came to the conclusion that we have no disagreement.

Women get sexist statements, men get sexists statements, life goes on and nobody needs to run for a safe space.

What's SJW?