Continuation Part 19: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[Bill Williams]

As part 18 has become rather long and slow to load, I have opened a part 19. Please try to stay on topic and be civil and polite in all your postings.

Posted By: Agatha

There is no question that a mark would highly likely be left. There were many bits in there I found odd including the vignette about the man wearing the vampire outfit.

While she has every right to write whatever she wants, I question why the people around her including the paper's editor wouldn't have counseled against publishing it.

Oh THAT piece. Why be coy?

It's probably only in the USA that Nov 1st has no significance. For people in traditionally Catholic countries, Nov 1st is the day of remembrance of the dead. No one in Italy (or in Mexico) would find what Amanda wrote strange at all.

"The holiday focuses on gatherings of family and friends to pray for and remember friends and family members who have died, and help support their spiritual journey. In 2008 the tradition was inscribed in the Representative List of the Intangible Cultural Heritage of Humanity by UNESCO."​

There is no question, other than for people who have no reason to celebrate All Saints Day.

 

[Grinder]

Oh THAT piece. Why be coy?

It's probably only in the USA that Nov 1st has no significance. For people in traditionally Catholic countries, Nov 1st is the day of remembrance of the dead. No one in Italy (or in Mexico) would find what Amanda wrote strange at all.

"The holiday focuses on gatherings of family and friends to pray for and remember friends and family members who have died, and help support their spiritual journey. In 2008 the tradition was inscribed in the Representative List of the Intangible Cultural Heritage of Humanity by UNESCO."​

There is no question, other than for people who have no reason to celebrate All Saints Day.

I thought using the title of the story was less than coy.

 

[Bill Williams]

I thought using the title of the story was less than coy.

Perhaps the title.... but why stretch it out?

Brevis esse laboro, obscurus fio; sectantem levia. Nervi deficiunt animique.

 

[Ken Dine]

But I've noticed this isn't always the case. I seem to remember contention on one of the PMFs over the Oscar Pistorius trial. And more recently, of the PGP I've seen express an opinion about the case made famous in the Serial podcast, in both instances it has been if not against the prosecution, at least sympathetic to the defense. I still think the unifying factor is a hatred for Amanda, hatred formed by individual reasons that might be different for each of them, but unites them into requiring the prosecution against her to be correct.

I agree that many 'Guilters' are motivated by hatred towards Amanda for a variety of reasons, such as basic misogyny, to even anti-Americanism since for many 'Guilters' Amanda represents all that's wrong with Americans.

Other fervent 'Guilters' simply believe all the untrue hype about this case which they read in the press early on, especially in the UK and Italian media accounts which had published (now) obvious nonsense leaked to them by the Italian police & prosecutors, which essentially had painted Amanda as an over-sexed lying evil (typical upper-class American) witch.

What I'm looking for is a dispassionate view of the case, the victim, etc, but still coming down on the side of the prosecution. I'm sure they all claim that, but when every single reconstructive theory without fail ends with Amanda delivering the fatal blow, despite not even the prosecution's evidence corroborating this, it seems obvious that this isn't happening.

As you say, there never was any actual evidence to support the prosecution's sex-game theories. Also, there's zero credible evidence that Amanda was any place other than Raffaele's apartment the night Guede murdered Meredith.

 

[Grinder]

from Vogt - On the other side, one jejune Italian armchair detective named Gabriele Belcastro is preparing to take his online obsession into the courts, by lodging a formal complaint with Florence prosecutors, alleging wide-ranging corruption and fraud in the Meredith Kercher case. News flash: There are few new revelations in this complaint, which is little more than a speculative rehashing of data already in the public dominion. By dragging the case yet again before the courts, some show they can’t stop picking at the scab of this very painful wound, which will only worsen the scar.

I wonder if this guy posts in English.

 

[Bill Williams]

from Vogt - On the other side, one jejune Italian armchair detective named Gabriele Belcastro is preparing to take his online obsession into the courts, by lodging a formal complaint with Florence prosecutors, alleging wide-ranging corruption and fraud in the Meredith Kercher case. News flash: There are few new revelations in this complaint, which is little more than a speculative rehashing of data already in the public dominion. By dragging the case yet again before the courts, some show they can’t stop picking at the scab of this very painful wound, which will only worsen the scar.

I wonder if this guy posts in English.

LOL!

 

[Vixen]

A visit in the night

<fx patter of paws

patter stops

door hinges creak

long muzzle appears around the door >

Hullo! Anbody here?

<fx sniffs around>

Huh!

<fx disappears back behind door

door slams shut

patter of paws recede>

 

[Samson]

I am completely certain Amanda Knox was not in 7 villa pergola when Meredith Kercher was being slaughtered.

 

[Vixen]

I am completely certain Amanda Knox was not in 7 villa pergola when Meredith Kercher was being slaughtered.

It's a shame you didn't take the witness stand to say so.

 

[Grinder]

During the hiatus did you find one case where a murder knife tested negative for blood but positive for the victims DNA?

 

[Vixen]

During the hiatus did you find one case where a murder knife tested negative for blood but positive for the victims DNA?

Remind me why you want me to find one for you.

 

[Grinder]

Remind me why you want me to find one for you.

The LCN DNA on the knife has, to be kind, been a questionable piece of evidence from the beginning to the end. One of the most obvious issues is that they claimed to find a tiny, even for DNA, sample of Meredith on the blade but the entire knife tested negative for blood. Clearly if the knife had been used to kill Meredith it would have covered in blood and blood is a very difficult substance to remove. The prosecution would have us believe that the knife was meticulously cleaned yet a tiny, even for DNA, piece survived.

So, is there another case? Remember the PG side wants proof of contamination. I would like proof that DNA can survive a cleaning that completely removes blood. Seems easier and more important to prove than contamination.

As an add on could you provide the weight/mass of blood needed for TMB versus the weight/mass of Meredith's "DNA".

One more, is it more likely that secondary and tertiary transfer of DNA is easily done or washing a knife of blood but not DNA?

 

[Vixen]

The LCN DNA on the knife has, to be kind, been a questionable piece of evidence from the beginning to the end. One of the most obvious issues is that they claimed to find a tiny, even for DNA, sample of Meredith on the blade but the entire knife tested negative for blood. Clearly if the knife had been used to kill Meredith it would have covered in blood and blood is a very difficult substance to remove. The prosecution would have us believe that the knife was meticulously cleaned yet a tiny, even for DNA, piece survived.

So, is there another case? Remember the PG side wants proof of contamination. I would like proof that DNA can survive a cleaning that completely removes blood. Seems easier and more important to prove than contamination.

As an add on could you provide the weight/mass of blood needed for TMB versus the weight/mass of Meredith's "DNA".

One more, is it more likely that secondary and tertiary transfer of DNA is easily done or washing a knife of blood but not DNA?

The thing is, Grinder, the prosecution, the defense AND the judges all agree it is the DNA profile of Mez. How the DNA got there is the task for the judge, not me. I am only a bean counter. I can help you with your Balance Sheet if you like.

 

[Grinder]

The thing is, Grinder, the prosecution, the defense AND the judges all agree it is the DNA profile of Mez. How the DNA got there is the task for the judge, not me. I am only a bean counter. I can help you with your Balance Sheet if you like.

IOW you can't find any example of a knife that had no blood but DNA of the victim. The judges did in the end regard the DNA evidence on the knife as bogus.

PGP have made the claim that DNA can't be transferred or that it must be wet or that if transferred another DNA must also be present. All of those contentions have been shown to be false. The contention that there is no way a knife can be used to stab someone and not show traces of blood but still provide DNA has not been shown.

I do not agree that all of the defense and prosecution witnesses believe it was Meredith's DNA and they certainly don't agree that if hers that it didn't get there my another means than it being the murder weapon.

 

[Vixen]

IOW you can't find any example of a knife that had no blood but DNA of the victim. The judges did in the end regard the DNA evidence on the knife as bogus.

PGP have made the claim that DNA can't be transferred or that it must be wet or that if transferred another DNA must also be present. All of those contentions have been shown to be false. The contention that there is no way a knife can be used to stab someone and not show traces of blood but still provide DNA has not been shown.

I do not agree that all of the defense and prosecution witnesses believe it was Meredith's DNA and they certainly don't agree that if hers that it didn't get there my another means than it being the murder weapon.

Your question is based on a false premise, as well as begging another.

It is not so blood is difficult to wash off a stainless steel blade, even if dried, which you'll know if you've ever chopped raw liver or any red meat.

As an every day example of how a piece of organic matter can remain even after washing vigorously with an abrasive material such as steel wool or powdered bleach, as is possible with the murder weapon, judging by the microscopic scrape marks on it, think about teeth brushing. We can use the latest high-powered electric toothbrush rigorously on all sides, with pro-toothpaste. Apply some disclosure tablets and we see areas of plaque still remaining! Take some dental floss, and there are all sorts of food remains in the gum crevices and between the teeth.

Likewise with the murder knife: flesh or skin tissue remained in one of the knife striations even though the blood washed off. There is a photograph of these striations and abrasive marks found on the - otherwise shiny - blade.

 

[bagels]

IIRC there was no "cytology" done on the sample or whatever to determine the origin of the DNA. They didn't identify any cells of any kind. It seems like a reasonably scientific question: what is the feasibility of removing every trace of blood that tests with sensitivities significantly greater than 1 part per million return negative, but DNA returns a positive identifiable profile. I'm pretty ignorant about forensics but I thought the PIP argument sounded plausible. That is, only white blood cells contain DNA, and red blood cells which are detectable by blood tests are found at a 700x concentration to white blood cells. Is it scientifically established that skin cells are harder to wash off than blood cells? This seems like something alleged simply because it explains the desired result.

The prosecution also resisted opening the knife. Again, the PIP argument that blood would drip into the seams and be very difficult to remove from there seemed plausible to me. The PGP countered with nothing.

The only thing the PGP have is the DNA profile, which was contested by the court appointed experts, and by every DNA expert that has since studied the case.

There is also the additional circumstantial evidence weighing against the knife being the murder weapon. The only reason to carry the knife to the apartment would have been to use it to kill Meredith with. But if Amanda knew in advance she was going to be committing a murder, she wouldn't have invited Rudy the burglar along the way. Remember, she could not have planned the crime until within 20 minutes of the murder because she had prior engagements that were only called off at the last second. So Guede would have no way of knowing he was supposed to hang around for a pre planned murder. Your way around this is Amanda and Guede had secret cell phones they used to communicate, but this is of course absurd and not supported by any evidence except wishful thinking.

 

[Grinder]

Your question is based on a false premise, as well as begging another.

It is not so blood is difficult to wash off a stainless steel blade, even if dried, which you'll know if you've ever chopped raw liver or any red meat.

Do you test your knives with Luminol or TMB after washing? We are not talking about visible blood on the knife. Why does blood show up when Luminol is used after a cleanup?

As an every day example of how a piece of organic matter can remain even after washing vigorously with an abrasive material such as steel wool or powdered bleach, as is possible with the murder weapon, judging by the microscopic scrape marks on it, think about teeth brushing. We can use the latest high-powered electric toothbrush rigorously on all sides, with pro-toothpaste. Apply some disclosure tablets and we see areas of plaque still remaining! Take some dental floss, and there are all sorts of food remains in the gum crevices and between the teeth.

And I'll bet there is also blood on those teeth. Not that your example is worth a toothpick.

Likewise with the murder knife: flesh or skin tissue remained in one of the knife striations even though the blood washed off. There is a photograph of these striations and abrasive marks found on the - otherwise shiny - blade.

The blood would have covered the tiny even for DNA sample and soaked it in (drum roll)blood. It isn't just the absurdity of DNA lodging itself in the "striation", which I'd bet would be found on every used knife, but that the cleaning solution used didn't damage the DNA beyond recognition.

You believe they killed Meredith and then went back to Raf's? Even if they went straight back the blood on the knife would have at least partially dried. You then theorize that they washed the knife. In order for you to believe that the DNA on the blade survived intact that would require that they didn't use bleach or other strongish cleaning agents. You believe that there was a smell of bleach at Raf's yet you must believe that it wasn't used on the most important to clean item in the world, the knife.

You must be contending that they washed the knife with water and were able to remove all the blood but left the magical tiny piece of DNA lodged in a tiny striation. Also, starch remained on the knife without blood. Weird.

 

[Vixen]

Do you test your knives with Luminol or TMB after washing? We are not talking about visible blood on the knife. Why does blood show up when Luminol is used after a cleanup?




And I'll bet there is also blood on those teeth. Not that your example is worth a toothpick.



The blood would have covered the tiny even for DNA sample and soaked it in (drum roll)blood. It isn't just the absurdity of DNA lodging itself in the "striation", which I'd bet would be found on every used knife, but that the cleaning solution used didn't damage the DNA beyond recognition.

You believe they killed Meredith and then went back to Raf's? Even if they went straight back the blood on the knife would have at least partially dried. You then theorize that they washed the knife. In order for you to believe that the DNA on the blade survived intact that would require that they didn't use bleach or other strongish cleaning agents. You believe that there was a smell of bleach at Raf's yet you must believe that it wasn't used on the most important to clean item in the world, the knife.

You must be contending that they washed the knife with water and were able to remove all the blood but left the magical tiny piece of DNA lodged in a tiny striation. Also, starch remained on the knife without blood. Weird.

That was the height of bumbling stupidity by those two clowns, Marasca and Bruno. Of course there can be starch from food on the blade if the knife was consequently used for cutting bread or chopping vegetables. Blundering buffoons. Their report is full of glaring, embarrassing, boo-boos.


Defective reasoning, so it's not possible to take the premise of, if it was starch it should have been porous and soaked in blood, too, seriously. What?

 

[Vixen]

IIRC there was no "cytology" done on the sample or whatever to determine the origin of the DNA. They didn't identify any cells of any kind. It seems like a reasonably scientific question: what is the feasibility of removing every trace of blood that tests with sensitivities significantly greater than 1 part per million return negative, but DNA returns a positive identifiable profile. I'm pretty ignorant about forensics but I thought the PIP argument sounded plausible. That is, only white blood cells contain DNA, and red blood cells which are detectable by blood tests are found at a 700x concentration to white blood cells. Is it scientifically established that skin cells are harder to wash off than blood cells? This seems like something alleged simply because it explains the desired result.

The prosecution also resisted opening the knife. Again, the PIP argument that blood would drip into the seams and be very difficult to remove from there seemed plausible to me. The PGP countered with nothing.

The only thing the PGP have is the DNA profile, which was contested by the court appointed experts, and by every DNA expert that has since studied the case.

There is also the additional circumstantial evidence weighing against the knife being the murder weapon. The only reason to carry the knife to the apartment would have been to use it to kill Meredith with. But if Amanda knew in advance she was going to be committing a murder, she wouldn't have invited Rudy the burglar along the way. Remember, she could not have planned the crime until within 20 minutes of the murder because she had prior engagements that were only called off at the last second. So Guede would have no way of knowing he was supposed to hang around for a pre planned murder. Your way around this is Amanda and Guede had secret cell phones they used to communicate, but this is of course absurd and not supported by any evidence except wishful thinking.

Whoa! There would not be blood dripping into the handle at the hilt, because, if you recall, this was an 18 inch knife which was only plunged in to a depth of circa eight inches. Any lack of blood there would not prove anything. Especially as the stabbing was overarm and downwards, whilst Mez was on her knees.

Sure, the opportunity to carry out their fantasy killing happened at short notice. However, that's not to say it was not planned before that. After all, Amanda ripped out the October pages in her diary, presumably because they were incriminating.

The pair synchonised turning off their phones together, and later lied through their teeth about it to cops.

All the elements of premeditation are there.

 

[Grinder]

That was the height of bumbling stupidity by those two clowns, Marasca and Bruno. Of course there can be starch from food on the blade if the knife was consequently used for cutting bread or chopping vegetables. Blundering buffoons. Their report is full of glaring, embarrassing, boo-boos.


Defective reasoning, so it's not possible to take the premise of, if it was starch it should have been porous and soaked in blood, too, seriously. What?

So you clearly think Amanda's DNA on the knife has no probative value. Good, your green eye-shade is working on reducing the glare.

There was dirt (starch) at the hilt where the blade is attached. Most likely the starch was there for some time. Do you believe they used the knife after the murder? If so, did they wash it over and over again?

This also undoes the detective picking it because it was so clean.

Side question, where was the knife while Curatolo observed them from 9:30 until just before midnight?