Continuation Part 19: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

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Whoa! There would not be blood dripping into the handle at the hilt, because, if you recall, this was an 18 inch knife which was only plunged in to a depth of circa eight inches. Any lack of blood there would not prove anything. Especially as the stabbing was overarm and downwards, whilst Mez was on her knees.

Sure, the opportunity to carry out their fantasy killing happened at short notice. However, that's not to say it was not planned before that. After all, Amanda ripped out the October pages in her diary, presumably because they were incriminating.

The pair synchonised turning off their phones together, and later lied through their teeth about it to cops.

All the elements of premeditation are there.

So they carefully carried the knife, tip down?

Why would they turn off their phones? What possible reason would there be? Obviously if they were planning this in the twenty minutes between Popovic and leaving they would realize leaving the phones on at Raf's would make far more sense.

Can you explain why she would rip pages out of a diary that she left to be found instead of just burning the whole thing or throwing it all away?
 
So you clearly think Amanda's DNA on the knife has no probative value. Good, your green eye-shade is working on reducing the glare.

There was dirt (starch) at the hilt where the blade is attached. Most likely the starch was there for some time. Do you believe they used the knife after the murder? If so, did they wash it over and over again?

This also undoes the detective picking it because it was so clean.

Side question, where was the knife while Curatolo observed them from 9:30 until just before midnight?

Probably still lying on the sheet.


Amanda herself asserted she used the knife for chopping vegetables. No doubt another one of her jokey half-truths that are only grimly too true, and not in an innocent way.

This woman will go down in history as one of the most notorious.
 
Do you have a reliable source for the pages being torn out of her diary?
 
Probably still lying on the sheet.


Amanda herself asserted she used the knife for chopping vegetables. No doubt another one of her jokey half-truths that are only grimly too true, and not in an innocent way.

This woman will go down in history as one of the most notorious.

Meredith screamed; they killed her and ran away; the kids went to the plaza and watched while covered in blood, the knife lay on the sheet and the blood dried hard; they returned to the cottage and washed themselves and selectively cleaned away their evidence; then carried the knife back to Raf's and washed it in gentle hand soap.
 
So they carefully carried the knife, tip down?

Why would they turn off their phones? What possible reason would there be? Obviously if they were planning this in the twenty minutes between Popovic and leaving they would realize leaving the phones on at Raf's would make far more sense.

Can you explain why she would rip pages out of a diary that she left to be found instead of just burning the whole thing or throwing it all away?

Why do you think Jodi Arias switched off her phone before butchering Travis. She had with her a gun stolen from her aunt (? gran?) and had staged a burglary to disguise the theft. From this, we can infer premeditation, from the steps taken before the event to (a) carry out a crime and (b) cover up tracks. Ruth Ellis was condemned to meet the hangman as she admitted that she took the gun to the pub in Hampstead (which I am familiar with) with the intention of killing her lover.

Popovic had been and gone by 8:45 pm.

Leaving the phones at Raff's does not work because they were clearly under the impression that any incoming calls or text whilst the phone was off could not be registered or its time traced. This is evidenced by the fact Papa Raff's call at 11:00pm still came through after the phone was switched back on. Jodi had the same misconception. The idiot didn't realise the act of switching off the phone could be circumstantial evidence in itself of forethought.

By the same dumb logic, Amanda thought she only needed to tear out the incriminating diary pages. Doh_!
 
Meredith screamed; they killed her and ran away; the kids went to the plaza and watched while covered in blood, the knife lay on the sheet and the blood dried hard; they returned to the cottage and washed themselves and selectively cleaned away their evidence; then carried the knife back to Raf's and washed it in gentle hand soap.

LOL, you are so funny.
 
Why do you think Jodi Arias switched off her phone before butchering Travis. She had with her a gun stolen from her aunt (? gran?) and had staged a burglary to disguise the theft. From this, we can infer premeditation, from the steps taken before the event to (a) carry out a crime and (b) cover up tracks. Ruth Ellis was condemned to meet the hangman as she admitted that she took the gun to the pub in Hampstead (which I am familiar with) with the intention of killing her lover.

Popovic had been and gone by 8:45 pm.

Leaving the phones at Raff's does not work because they were clearly under the impression that any incoming calls or text whilst the phone was off could not be registered or its time traced. This is evidenced by the fact Papa Raff's call at 11:00pm still came through after the phone was switched back on. Jodi had the same misconception. The idiot didn't realise the act of switching off the phone could be circumstantial evidence in itself of forethought.

By the same dumb logic, Amanda thought she only needed to tear out the incriminating diary pages. Doh_!

Why is that clear? I haven't any idea why other people may or may not have done this or that.

Why would they turn their phones off? Why would they not wish a text or call to register? I'd have called and texted a few people and told them I'd be unable to answer in a few minutes if things went as planned (;);)) and then leave the phones in place to register the time and place.

Do you have a source for the missing pages?
 
Whoa! There would not be blood dripping into the handle at the hilt, because, if you recall, this was an 18 inch knife which was only plunged in to a depth of circa eight inches.

Yes I'm well aware that Amanda, when stabbing in the giant kitchen knife with enough force and ferociousness to deliver a fatal blow, somehow managed to only deliver a wound small enough to be consistent with the other two wounds from the smaller knife. Of course the police weren't fooled by this deception, and very fortunately for them the knife which could prove their arrests were justified turned out to do just that.

Sure, the opportunity to carry out their fantasy killing happened at short notice. However, that's not to say it was not planned before that. After all, Amanda ripped out the October pages in her diary, presumably because they were incriminating.

The pair synchonised turning off their phones together, and later lied through their teeth about it to cops.

All the elements of premeditation are there.

Yes but a premeditation theory requires the inclusion of Rudy Guede. Now you have three murder conspirators - who don't speak in any mutually proficient languages, two of which have never been known to have laid eyes on each other, and two of which have only been known to be in physical proximity of each other due to a mutual acquaintance at the cottage, and two of which have only known each other for five days - planning and carrying out a rape murder, on 20 minutes notice, without any ability to coordinate with each other by any known means such as cell phones, e-mail, etc.

That's a really crazy idea that doesn't make any sense, which is why no prosecutor or court ever proposed it.

I agree that there are a lot of conflicts and constraints that make a workable theory against the students elusive and difficult. The prosecution and PGP have proposed all sorts of contortions trying to get everything to fit, but it never quite works. There is a very good reason for this. The prosecution is constrained by their actions 8 years ago when they cemented a crime theory that they came up with before they knew the facts of the case. They arrested Amanda and Raffaele and declared case closed having absolutely no idea that their evening wasn't free until much later. They had absolutely no idea the results of their forensic investigation would turn up this random burglar who wasn't in any contact with their suspects. They thought the crime was something much different, and they've had to bend themselves out of shape trying to work what actually happened with what they backed themselves into a corner to keep insisting happened.

The police arrived at a gruesome apparent sex murder with a sloppy and implausible break-in. Since burglaries and thefts happen often, and murders hardly happen at all, and since the break-in seemed so implausible, and the crime so dramatic, they assumed the break-in was staged. This lead them to investigate the occupants of the cottage, and the only one that was available at the time of the murder was Amanda Knox. Their starting assumption constrained their entire investigation to be incapable of ever focusing on anybody else. The icing on the cake was on the night of the murder, around the time of the murder, she texted a black African immigrant a phrase which essentially translated in Italian to "we'll meet later tonight." But she had previously told the police she was staying with her boyfriend all night. So the break-in is staged by one of the occupants, only one occupant was available to stage it, and on then night it was staged she was texting a black immigrant about a secret meeting she later lied to the police about. They realized the crime was the simple domestic murder they thought it was, and interrogated her until they did exactly what they said they did to her, which was get her to buckle and confirm what they knew to be correct, and then declared case closed in their public press conference.

Now the police have made three murderers out of three people. One is an honors exchange student from the University of Washington. Another is the son of a respected well-to-do family and doctor. Can you imagine if they had made a mistake with their three rushed arrests and illegal interrogations, and all three were totally innocent? I wonder how much trouble the prosecutor, who was already in hot water, would have been in? It would have been tremendously problematic for them if their investigation had turned up nothing.

Unfortunately for them none of their initial assumptions or theories of the crime turned out to be in any way correct. Amanda wasn't texting anybody about secret rendezvous before the murder, she thought she would be called into work. The implausible and sloppy break-in looked a lot less implausible and sloppy when the results of their forensic investigation revealed the overwhelming presence of a known burglar who just two weeks prior to the murder made an equally implausible and sloppy break-in at a law office, that almost verbatim resembled the break-in at the cottage. This burglar had no real connection to their suspects so it was looking pretty desperate for the prosecution. This is why their crime theory was contorted. This is why they have Amanda and Raffaele spontaneously deciding to leave their cozy apartment to return to the cottage in the middle of the night for no reason. This is why they have them inviting a random burglar along the way for no reason. This is why they have Amanda and Raffaele and Rudy spontaneously deciding to murder and sexually assault Meredith for no reason. This is why they have Amanda pulling out a kitchen knife she happened to be carrying across town for no reason by spontaneous chance to deliver the fatal blow. This insanity is what idiot judge Massei sent the two students to prison for 30 years on. It's what the clown court Chieffi agreed should be considered as plausible, and it's what king moron Nencini confirmed. To a neutral and rational observer, it is readily apparent what happened (or didn't happen) within 5 minutes of study. And yet, the PGP have latched on to this, with a vivaciousness and dedication I continue to find surprising.
 
Yes I'm well aware that Amanda, when stabbing in the giant kitchen knife with enough force and ferociousness to deliver a fatal blow, somehow managed to only deliver a wound small enough to be consistent with the other two wounds from the smaller knife. Of course the police weren't fooled by this deception, and very fortunately for them the knife which could prove their arrests were justified turned out to do just that.



Yes but a premeditation theory requires the inclusion of Rudy Guede. Now you have three murder conspirators - who don't speak in any mutually proficient languages, two of which have never been known to have laid eyes on each other, and two of which have only been known to be in physical proximity of each other due to a mutual acquaintance at the cottage, and two of which have only known each other for five days - planning and carrying out a rape murder, on 20 minutes notice, without any ability to coordinate with each other by any known means such as cell phones, e-mail, etc.

That's a really crazy idea that doesn't make any sense, which is why no prosecutor or court ever proposed it.

I agree that there are a lot of conflicts and constraints that make a workable theory against the students elusive and difficult. The prosecution and PGP have proposed all sorts of contortions trying to get everything to fit, but it never quite works. There is a very good reason for this. The prosecution is constrained by their actions 8 years ago when they cemented a crime theory that they came up with before they knew the facts of the case. They arrested Amanda and Raffaele and declared case closed having absolutely no idea that their evening wasn't free until much later. They had absolutely no idea the results of their forensic investigation would turn up this random burglar who wasn't in any contact with their suspects. They thought the crime was something much different, and they've had to bend themselves out of shape trying to work what actually happened with what they backed themselves into a corner to keep insisting happened.

The police arrived at a gruesome apparent sex murder with a sloppy and implausible break-in. Since burglaries and thefts happen often, and murders hardly happen at all, and since the break-in seemed so implausible, and the crime so dramatic, they assumed the break-in was staged. This lead them to investigate the occupants of the cottage, and the only one that was available at the time of the murder was Amanda Knox. Their starting assumption constrained their entire investigation to be incapable of ever focusing on anybody else. The icing on the cake was on the night of the murder, around the time of the murder, she texted a black African immigrant a phrase which essentially translated in Italian to "we'll meet later tonight." But she had previously told the police she was staying with her boyfriend all night. So the break-in is staged by one of the occupants, only one occupant was available to stage it, and on then night it was staged she was texting a black immigrant about a secret meeting she later lied to the police about. They realized the crime was the simple domestic murder they thought it was, and interrogated her until they did exactly what they said they did to her, which was get her to buckle and confirm what they knew to be correct, and then declared case closed in their public press conference.

Now the police have made three murderers out of three people. One is an honors exchange student from the University of Washington. Another is the son of a respected well-to-do family and doctor. Can you imagine if they had made a mistake with their three rushed arrests and illegal interrogations, and all three were totally innocent? I wonder how much trouble the prosecutor, who was already in hot water, would have been in? It would have been tremendously problematic for them if their investigation had turned up nothing.

Unfortunately for them none of their initial assumptions or theories of the crime turned out to be in any way correct. Amanda wasn't texting anybody about secret rendezvous before the murder, she thought she would be called into work. The implausible and sloppy break-in looked a lot less implausible and sloppy when the results of their forensic investigation revealed the overwhelming presence of a known burglar who just two weeks prior to the murder made an equally implausible and sloppy break-in at a law office, that almost verbatim resembled the break-in at the cottage. This burglar had no real connection to their suspects so it was looking pretty desperate for the prosecution. This is why their crime theory was contorted. This is why they have Amanda and Raffaele spontaneously deciding to leave their cozy apartment to return to the cottage in the middle of the night for no reason. This is why they have them inviting a random burglar along the way for no reason. This is why they have Amanda and Raffaele and Rudy spontaneously deciding to murder and sexually assault Meredith for no reason. This is why they have Amanda pulling out a kitchen knife she happened to be carrying across town for no reason by spontaneous chance to deliver the fatal blow. This insanity is what idiot judge Massei sent the two students to prison for 30 years on. It's what the clown court Chieffi agreed should be considered as plausible, and it's what king moron Nencini confirmed. To a neutral and rational observer, it is readily apparent what happened (or didn't happen) within 5 minutes of study. And yet, the PGP have latched on to this, with a vivaciousness and dedication I continue to find surprising.


The crass stupidity is that of the alleged perps.

Moronic mistake #1: believing that by staging a burglary, the police would go out looking for a mysterious stranger and not them. This was stupid, because the morons didn't realise staged burglaries are relatively common. Why, Amanda had done one herself previously.

Moronic mistake #2 faking a rape attack. Coming back to move the victim, undress her and pose her ready to be found by A. N. Other. This was moronic as Amanda and Raff's casual denial they knew Mez lay dead behind the door was clearly faked. Amanda had to make up a lie days later, to fit the incoming evidence of her footprint in blood. "Ah. I had to shuffle along on a towel and my foot slipped." <fx Brummie accent: Yes, mate!>

Stupid! #3 Having the brilliant idea of... blaming someone else! Stunning.
 
Why is that clear? I haven't any idea why other people may or may not have done this or that.

Why would they turn their phones off? Why would they not wish a text or call to register? I'd have called and texted a few people and told them I'd be unable to answer in a few minutes if things went as planned (;);)) and then leave the phones in place to register the time and place.

Do you have a source for the missing pages?

Because stupid people think that by switching off their phone, they become invisible. A bit like a young kid who covers their face with their hands and thinks no-one can see them.
 
The crass stupidity is that of the alleged perps.

Moronic mistake #1: believing that by staging a burglary, the police would go out looking for a mysterious stranger and not them. This was stupid, because the morons didn't realise staged burglaries are relatively common. Why, Amanda had done one herself previously.

And they picked the window and method because why? The prank didn't involve a fake break in only missing stuff. Hiding stuff isn't vaguely similar to the break in at the cottage.

Moronic mistake #2 faking a rape attack. Coming back to move the victim, undress her and pose her ready to be found by A. N. Other. This was moronic as Amanda and Raff's casual denial they knew Mez lay dead behind the door was clearly faked. Amanda had to make up a lie days later, to fit the incoming evidence of her footprint in blood. "Ah. I had to shuffle along on a towel and my foot slipped." <fx Brummie accent: Yes, mate!>

If she knew she had left footprints from one foot why didn't she clean it up? The bathmat account was given before the prints were found.

Stupid! #3 Having the brilliant idea of... blaming someone else! Stunning.

How again did she know who to name? The police knew her story was correct but it wasn't. Weird.
 
Because stupid people think that by switching off their phone, they become invisible. A bit like a young kid who covers their face with their hands and thinks no-one can see them.

So they knew about GPS. Why wouldn't they leave them at Raf's, remaining visible and there?
 
So they knew about GPS. Why wouldn't they leave them at Raf's, remaining visible and there?


Ah, that's simple! The answer is this: if one has a blinkered, vindictive, irrational need to believe that Knox and/or Sollecito were involved in the murder of Meredith Kercher (and if one is not terrifically bright to boot....), then one has to contort one's thinking numerous times in order to shoehorn the facts/evidence into one's a priori (and incorrect) conclusion. In this particular instance, for example, one has to contort a situation where Knox and Sollecito knew that their location could be tracked in some manner from their mobile phones*, but that these "evil geniuses" took the relatively stupid decision to turn their phones off altogether, rather than the far, far more obvious (and far, far more likely) decision to leave the phones switched on in Sollecito's apartment. That way, both of them could actually have used their phones' location during any subsequent investigation to help construct a false alibi.


* But GPS is not a factor here. In 2007, it would have been hugely unlikely that either Knox or Sollecito would have had a GPS-enabled phone. But that doesn't mean that their phones couldn't be location-tracked - they could, albeit in a far more primitive and imprecise way through base station triangulation. It's not hard to conceive that Sollecito - a computer science undergrad at the time - would know about this concept. But, as I said, if he did know about it, and if he were planning to participate on a violent act on Kercher where he wanted to mask/misdirect his location to any potential investigators, the clearly obvious best practice would have been to leave his (and Knox's) phone switched on inside his apartment.
 
So they knew about GPS. Why wouldn't they leave them at Raf's, remaining visible and there?

Sheer stupidity and ignorance about phone signals, which incidentally did have GPS in 2007.


You could ask why Jodi Arias stupidly turned her phone off as she approached the home town of her victim, rather than just put it on silent.
 
Ah, that's simple! The answer is this: if one has a blinkered, vindictive, irrational need to believe that Knox and/or Sollecito were involved in the murder of Meredith Kercher (and if one is not terrifically bright to boot....), then one has to contort one's thinking numerous times in order to shoehorn the facts/evidence into one's a priori (and incorrect) conclusion. In this particular instance, for example, one has to contort a situation where Knox and Sollecito knew that their location could be tracked in some manner from their mobile phones*, but that these "evil geniuses" took the relatively stupid decision to turn their phones off altogether, rather than the far, far more obvious (and far, far more likely) decision to leave the phones switched on in Sollecito's apartment. That way, both of them could actually have used their phones' location during any subsequent investigation to help construct a false alibi.


* But GPS is not a factor here. In 2007, it would have been hugely unlikely that either Knox or Sollecito would have had a GPS-enabled phone. But that doesn't mean that their phones couldn't be location-tracked - they could, albeit in a far more primitive and imprecise way through base station triangulation. It's not hard to conceive that Sollecito - a computer science undergrad at the time - would know about this concept. But, as I said, if he did know about it, and if he were planning to participate on a violent act on Kercher where he wanted to mask/misdirect his location to any potential investigators, the clearly obvious best practice would have been to leave his (and Knox's) phone switched on inside his apartment.

The idea behind switching off the phones is to forestall the question, how come you didn't answer the phone during the time period of the murder? How do you know they not only switched off their phones but also left them behind.
 
The idea behind switching off the phones is to forestall the question, how come you didn't answer the phone during the time period of the murder? How do you know they not only switched off their phones but also left them behind.

Yes they were too stupid to come up with "we were going to spend some time having sex and didn't want to be disturbed :blush:".

Do you know how they knew that Amanda's phone was turned off?

Do you have that reference to her diary having pages torn out?

Come up with just one other case where the knife tested negatively for blood but produced the DNA of the victim? Or how about a knife cleaned with bleach and then used for normal kitchen use producing the victim's DNA?

Oh and have you acknowledged the starch coming from later use completely makes the DNA of Amanda on the knife non probative? How do you explain Raf's DNA not being on the knife?
 
Sheer stupidity and ignorance about phone signals, which incidentally did have GPS in 2007.


People shouldn't really hold forth on things they don't know much about.

While a few very specialist mobile phones had A-GPS capability from around 2002 onwards, it wasn't until around 2008 that the mass-market mobile device manufacturers (e.g. Motorola. Nokia, SonyEricsson) started to place A-GPS units in their devices. And even then, it was only in the very high-end models: it didn't bleed down to the "normal" models til around 2010.

I'm not sure if it's ever been formally documented exactly which models of mobile phones Knox and Sollecito owned/used in November 2007. But I'd be prepared to state that I am extremely highly confident that they would not have been GPS-enabled handsets.

(PS: to anyone *cough* who might be looking for "gotcha" counterexamples, "GPRS" is entirely different to - and entirely unrelated to - "GPS". In case you embarrass yourself, y'know :D )
 
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Yes they were too stupid to come up with "we were going to spend some time having sex and didn't want to be disturbed :blush:".


Yep. Or "we were watching a movie with the volume up high and the phone(s) was in another room, so we didn't hear it". Or "we were a little high and we were dozing".

You know - the type of entirely plausible, defensible things that the likes of you and I (and Knox and Sollecito) could think up in.... oh..... about 30 seconds........ :rolleyes:
 
The idea behind switching off the phones is to forestall the question, how come you didn't answer the phone during the time period of the murder? How do you know they not only switched off their phones but also left them behind.


1) They didn't leave Sollecito's apartment at all after about 6.30pm that evening/night, so that question is wholly moot.

2) If - hypothetically - they had participated in the murder (and they had accordingly thought out this unbelievable half-baked cellphone "strategy" in advance), once they'd switched off their mobile phones, it would have been utterly immaterial whether or not they'd taken the switched-off phones with them. Once a handset is switched off, it no longer communicates with the cellular network, and nor does it receive GPS location data from the GPS satellites. So whether a switched-off handset is taken to Timbuktu, Baghdad or Easter Island before it's switched on again, there will never be any way of knowing where it has been taken. Sollecito would certainly have known this basic engineering/science fact, and therefore if Knox/Sollecito really had deliberately switched off their phones as a premeditation act before the murder (which of course they did not), Sollecito would have known that it would have made no difference from that point onwards (until the phones were turned on again) whether they took their phones with them or left them in his apartment. It's just a shame that certain "armchair detectives" aren't similarly informed or educated in this area........
 
Vixen the reason I keep asking about the knife is that the prosecution as well as their supporters should be able to show that their evidence or theory of a crime is possible. The defense, though not themselves, were able to show that getting into the window was far from impossible. If a prosecution claimed that the defendant had shot the victim from a distance of 1/2 a mile but no expert marksman had ever been able to accomplish the feat, that would make the prosecution claim very very weak.

Why has no case been referred to by the ISCI showing that this happens? Whether or not the test could be duplicated is one thing but demonstrating that the finding is reasonably possible would seem a less demanding drill than proving contamination.
 
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