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What is the appeal of "objective morality"

"Nothing but biology" is not the same as "evolution did it." I'd certainly grant that evolutionary biology is a sub discipline, but I think you'll find more on morality in sociology.

But all my objections disappear if we can answer moral questions by appealing to biological (or evolutionary) principles. Can we? It would be handy.

Find a biological difference we can point to that is predictive of moral behavior. A good place to look might be gender, but anything would do. It ought to be heritable as well, I suppose.

As far as I can tell, morality is an emergent property, with a substantial portion learned. But that's just a guess on my part. It would be extremely interesting to see the biological roots of moral behavior. The more specific, the better. I'm not set against the idea, I'm just skeptical.
 
"Nothing but biology" is not the same as "evolution did it." I'd certainly grant that evolutionary biology is a sub discipline, but I think you'll find more on morality in sociology.

But all my objections disappear if we can answer moral questions by appealing to biological (or evolutionary) principles. Can we? It would be handy.

Find a biological difference we can point to that is predictive of moral behavior. A good place to look might be gender, but anything would do. It ought to be heritable as well, I suppose.

As far as I can tell, morality is an emergent property, with a substantial portion learned. But that's just a guess on my part. It would be extremely interesting to see the biological roots of moral behavior. The more specific, the better. I'm not set against the idea, I'm just skeptical.


I have to go... but ponder over your questions above if you just changed the word morality to ...say

  • Language
  • Walking upright
  • Tool making
  • Empathy
  • Writing
  • Poetry
  • Music
  • Art
  • Engineering

Do you think the above are instilled into humanity from outside of biology and human essence?

Does music come from somewhere other than human biological brains?
 
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Do you understand the above quote? Should I rephrase?


It is you who does not understand what you are saying.... here I will rephrase....

You ASKED A QUESTION.... TWICE.... and I responded to it... yet you said that I am answering questions no one was asking.

The answers to the questions below are given in this post.

And I keep telling you that you are answering questions that nobody is asking.
<snip ... utter claptrap>


In addition, I am unaware of how, even in principle, such a preference could be "proven" scientifically.


...
The question is whether or not such a preference can be scientifically demonstrated as "correct."
 
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Precisely... geography plays as much a role in evolution as does society and earthquakes and solar rays.

It is biology and chemistry and sociology .... genetic mutation punctuated by environmental selective pressures.

The environment is geographical, physical, and societal as well as other living species.

Birds that no longer had to fly away from predators evolved slowly over millions of years into flightless birds.

Wolf-like creatures that spend too much time hunting in watery environments evolved slowly over millions of years into whales.

So did pack animals evolve to have certain behavioral traits as a result of their biological evolution... some of these traits we call morality.

What an all-purpose hammer this is turning out to be. It may explain why we disagree on this point. Quite obviously, I have evolved to a more advanced level and have different instincts which determine my behavior.

On the upside, I can't fault you for any incorrect points you make. It's just an artifact of your biology. We are all slaves to our evolutionary roots. Heck, if my parents had been different, I might agree with you.
 
I have to go... but ponder over your questions above if you just changed the word morality to ...say

  • Language
  • Walking upright
  • Tool making
  • Empathy
  • Writing
  • Poetry
  • Music
  • Art
  • Engineering

Do you think the above are instilled into humanity from outside of biology and human essence?

Does music come from somewhere other than human biological brains?

It is a different thing to say "determined by" and "outside of." All of those things (and more) are done by the biological organisms we call humans. But this has no more explanatory power than saying bridges are made of steel and then thinking we know all about bridges because we know a lot about steel. There's more to the story.

I am not arguing for the spiritual or for anything beyond a materialist point of view. But that doesn't mean we can make the leap from biology to morals just because the former is a necessary ingredient of the latter. For the examples you list, there just isn't enough explanatory power to be useful.

How would you answer the objection that, despite it being just biology and instinct, I might change my moral judgements over time? Or, become an artist or poet?

When you convince me that vegetarianism is morally correct, have you altered my biology? By what mechanism does your written word change the makeup of my body? Even if you invoke brain states, I'm still thinking there is a strong contingent element more properly understood at the level of behavioral psychology than biology.

But maybe it is the case that tweaking a few neurons can generate the effects we are interested in. Even so, does it improve our understanding of these epiphenomena? I find the meta-categories more useful. If I want to guess how someone will vote, don't show me their DNA, tell me if they lean conservative or liberal instead.
 
The problem is that I (and probably most posters on this thread) am not a neurologist or on the cutting edge of evolutionary studies, so the complex questions and answers about which genes affect morality and how they work go unanswered. But I think there's a danger of concluding ha, I stumped them. They can't answer my questions so therefore they're wrong.

So I'll speak in vague terms because that's all I know, but I think there are many competing "morals" encoded in any human. Following rules is good because it stabilizes the group and avoids endless arguments, and reliance primarily on that trait might create a conservative. Sympathy for the poor is good because it allows more group members to survive, many of whom in a small tribe might carry some of your genes, and reliance primarily on that trait might create a liberal.

Some changes are so small I don't think they even count on the evolutionary scale. Vegetarianism based on sympathy for similar creatures may come from caring about humans in our tribe, but we have the luxury now to spread it out to larger animals. I don't know of any hunter-gatherer tribe that is vegetarian by choice, but no evolutionary-scale change is necessary for empathy as a trait to be more dominant when agriculture provides plenty of vegetables all year.

I think all these competing but individually useful morals are encoded in us, and each individual relies more on some than others. Nature? Nurture encouraging some traits? Probably both, but to get it down to the genetic level requires somebody far above my pay grade.
 
......If I want to guess how someone will vote, don't show me their DNA, tell me if they lean conservative or liberal instead.


Seriously??????

You have never heard of anyone prediicting voter leanings depending on their ethnic, racial, and geographical demographic??????
 
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Seriously??????

You have never heard of anyone prediicting voter leanings depending on their ethnic, racial, and geographical demographic??????

I have heard of that, yes. I've also heard the cops describe someone as "tall, with a ponytail." In neither case does the descriptor determine the qualities - it's just a handy label we attach to identify different groups. But while we're at it, how does geographic location depend on biology? I thought it worked the other way around - that geography drove biology.
 
The problem is that I (and probably most posters on this thread) am not a neurologist or on the cutting edge of evolutionary studies, so the complex questions and answers about which genes affect morality and how they work go unanswered. But I think there's a danger of concluding ha, I stumped them. They can't answer my questions so therefore they're wrong.

I hope I didn't sound like I was doing that. What I'm saying is that I don't find evolutionary or biological rationales for behavior particularly compelling. Not because we aren't grounded in biology, and not because behavior is something special that escapes materialism, but only because we have much better descriptions at higher levels.

A strong parallel would be trying to describe biology with quantum physics. We probably all agree that biology is subject to the laws of particle physics, but quantum mechanics just doesn't capture (or explain) what interests us.

So I'll speak in vague terms because that's all I know, but I think there are many competing "morals" encoded in any human. Following rules is good because it stabilizes the group and avoids endless arguments, and reliance primarily on that trait might create a conservative. Sympathy for the poor is good because it allows more group members to survive, many of whom in a small tribe might carry some of your genes, and reliance primarily on that trait might create a liberal.

Some changes are so small I don't think they even count on the evolutionary scale. Vegetarianism based on sympathy for similar creatures may come from caring about humans in our tribe, but we have the luxury now to spread it out to larger animals. I don't know of any hunter-gatherer tribe that is vegetarian by choice, but no evolutionary-scale change is necessary for empathy as a trait to be more dominant when agriculture provides plenty of vegetables all year.

I think all these competing but individually useful morals are encoded in us, and each individual relies more on some than others. Nature? Nurture encouraging some traits? Probably both, but to get it down to the genetic level requires somebody far above my pay grade.

The difficulty I see is in the "flavor" of the evolutionary explanation, what I'm calling a pseudo-explanation. We find some trait that strikes us as noteworthy, and then try to figure out how that trait might have evolved. This is generally based on the utility we ascribe to the behavior that has our attention.

Sounds good so far, but "sounds good" isn't enough. "Sounds good" is fine for myth making and "Just So" stories, but if we want to take the subject seriously, we need evidence. That's hard to come by with something that doesn't leave fossil evidence.

There's also the danger of thinking the traits we like or find useful are somehow justified by evolution - they are better because they survived. We become the puddle, thinking the current situation was the outcome of a directed process. But it doesn't have to be. And, so far as I know, there's no way to prove the just-so stories false.

For morality, it's even worse. We can say that being moral goes along with being social animals. Alternatively, we could say we are social animals because we are moral. Or, we could say morality is simply an accident that springs from cognition and theorizing about others.

To distinguish the variants we'd need to run experiments. But we only have the one-off historical experiment to look at. In my view, there simply isn't enough data to be had.

There's a really good, free course out of Stanford on "Human Behavioral Biology." The whole lecture series is good, but the second and third lectures address these issues directly.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0Oa4Lp5fLE&list=PL848F2368C90DDC3D&index=2
 
It is you who does not understand what you are saying.... here I will rephrase....

You ASKED A QUESTION.... TWICE.... and I responded to it... yet you said that I am answering questions no one was asking.

The answers to the questions below are given in this post.

I'll try to break this down even further.

1. Believing true things is better than believing false things.
2. Most people prefer believing true things over false things.

Do you understand that sentence 1 and sentence 2 are not identical?
 
What I'm saying is that, unless I believe that there are objective moral norms, it seems to me that ideal rationality requires that I maximize my utility by rejecting all (subjective) moral norms and reasoning purely based on prudence.



Sure. I do not believe in objective morality. Hedonism + prudence = my guiding light. Makes perfect sense. As it turns out, I would estimate that I am a morally average person, considering my time and place. I don't see things in terms of good and evil, so much as outcomes that I want vs outcomes that I don't want. Luckily for me, in the broadest strokes, the things that I want and don't want jibe well enough with the society I find myself in.

Of course, someone may have the same base philosophy, and the hedonism part could involve sadistic murder, and the prudence part could all be about not getting caught. Yet still, this does not turn into an argument for objective morality. That would be an appeal to consequence.
 
Sure. I do not believe in objective morality. Hedonism + prudence = my guiding light. Makes perfect sense. As it turns out, I would estimate that I am a morally average person, considering my time and place. I don't see things in terms of good and evil, so much as outcomes that I want vs outcomes that I don't want. Luckily for me, in the broadest strokes, the things that I want and don't want jibe well enough with the society I find myself in.

Of course, someone may have the same base philosophy, and the hedonism part could involve sadistic murder, and the prudence part could all be about not getting caught. Yet still, this does not turn into an argument for objective morality. That would be an appeal to consequence.

Quite right that it would be an appeal to consequence. I'm not trying to make that argument at all.

It is one thing to point out the consequence of a position, and another to say that the consequence is a reason to reject the position.

Thanks much for your contribution. Others seem to balk at my claim that a rational being who accepts moral subjectivism ought to be a pure hedonist. I'm not sure why that isn't obvious.

ETA: A very minor nit. You say "hedonism + prudence". From where I sit, those are synonyms.
 
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Others seem to balk at my claim that a rational being who accepts moral subjectivism ought to be a pure hedonist. I'm not sure why that isn't obvious.

I think it's just the negative connotation of "hedonism." I had a friend once who said, "I am a hedonist: I do whatever I want, whenever I want. Thing is, the stuff I want is pretty ordinary."
 
I think it's just the negative connotation of "hedonism." I had a friend once who said, "I am a hedonist: I do whatever I want, whenever I want. Thing is, the stuff I want is pretty ordinary."

Yes, perhaps so. The term "hedonism" certainly sounds more indulgent than it need be in practice.

That's probably why Porch felt compelled to add prudence to his self-description, but as far as the usual use of the terms in philosophy, it is redundant.
 
Yes, perhaps so. The term "hedonism" certainly sounds more indulgent than it need be in practice.

That's probably why Porch felt compelled to add prudence to his self-description, but as far as the usual use of the terms in philosophy, it is redundant.



That's pretty much it. I had considered saying something about emotional intelligence at first, thought prudence sounded better. I agree that adding prudence is redundant.

Curious though, were you saying in your earlier post that "hedonism + prudence" is synonymous with "hedonism", or that "hedonism" is synonymous with "prudence"?

ETA: Huh, just found that internet dictionary has as the third definition for prudence, "3. regard for one's own interests." So in a sense, they do mean the same thing. Hadn't thought of that before, since one suggests wild abandon, while the other suggests caution. Round here.
 
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That's pretty much it. I had considered saying something about emotional intelligence at first, thought prudence sounded better. I agree that adding prudence is redundant.

Curious though, were you saying in your earlier post that "hedonism + prudence" is synonymous with "hedonism", or that "hedonism" is synonymous with "prudence"?

ETA: Huh, just found that internet dictionary has as the third definition for prudence, "3. regard for one's own interests." So in a sense, they do mean the same thing. Hadn't thought of that before, since one suggests wild abandon, while the other suggests caution. Round here.

Right. In philosophical circles, hedonism doesn't entail unreflective abandon, but simple self-interest, and prudence means more or less the same thing.

Seems to me that, traditionally, we use "hedonism" to refer to a moral theory (the theory that we are morally obliged to do what is in our interest, like Ayn Rand says), and "prudence" to refer to that part of practical reasoning that is non-moral and selfishly motivated, but the two uses really identify the same kind of reasoning.
 
As far as I'm concerned, it is self-evident that believing truth is intrinsically better than believing a false statement. Indeed, unless each of us accepts that claim, I honestly don't know what the point of argument is.

There's this thread: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=299630

It's all about the moral quandry of what to tell a dying girl about death, and several posters come down on the side that it's better to let her believe a pleasant lie.
 
Similarities in individual behavior (and there are endless examples) implicate collective conditions. Something that is common across a group of fundamentally related phenomenon can be described as an objective condition. It occurs irrespective of the action of the individual.

We can speak so, if you want, but what you call "objective" is usually called "intersubjective" in epistemology, semantics and ethics. The distinction between objective and intersubjective is important. It distinguish between sentences about external facts and sentences by consensus, or beliefs common to a community. This is to say, shared beliefs.

What you call an "objective reaction" (to run away from a swarm) is called "natural impulses" or "fixed action patterns" in psychology.

I doubt very much that in ethics we can find many fixed action patterns or universal intersubjective beliefs. Many apparent intersubjective moral norms widely extended, as "thou shall not kill", are abstract. The consensus decreases significantly if you concretize.
 
I likes.

The International Skeptics Forum can be thought of as a thought community.

Of course, but we can find some more extended communities that probably share the same moral principles. To increase or to communicate people that share the same principles is a moral task and the consequence of a rational moral debate. Sometimes we are not aware of important contradictions in our moral beliefs. It also happen on other occasions that we are not aware of the fundamental bases of our moral thinking. Things as such are the best outcomes of a rational debate.

It is true that other people uses moral discussion to attack in all directions. This is their problem. A moral discussion is ineffective in these circumstances.
Therefore, the first condition of morality is the fair play in the discussion. (In all kind of discussion, in reality).

When moral principles of some people are different or mutually incompatible, this is not a moral problem, but a political one.
 

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