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US government switches 180 degrees, now openly and publicly supports ISIS

Roger Stonechurch

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Sep 8, 2015
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I don't need to detail this much: it has been openly in the news that the US is critical of Russian support for Assad and is actively trying to thwart military aid to Assad, as well as passively by letting stooges within EU governments act on its behalf:

Google: "France attempts to block Russian military deployment in Syria"
Google: "Germany's Merkel sees need to cooperate with Russia on Syria"
Google: "Madness of Blockading Syria’s Regime"

(I can only provide url's after 15 posts)

Previously support for ISIS was behind the scenes, while publicly pretending to oppose it and pretending that less than 5 airstrikes per day (only a year or so revised to ~12) is going to make ISIS go away.
 
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CT forum is thataway ----------->
Fine, follow your own directions if you think that:

1. with Assad gone, the remaining Arab christians will be secure.
2. with Assad gone, he will be replaced by a representative democracy in which all different political and religious factions will be properly represented and discuss their issues in a parliament or house of representatives, and this will magically work out.
3. opposing Assad somehow doesn't benefit ISIS

You'll fit in just well with the rest of the nutjobs.
 
What he said, and also if this is about something that the US Government has done, then why isn't it in US Politics?
1. Because it applies to issues that impact the rest of us in Europe, in case you haven't switched on your TV (or never tuned away from the Kardashians) and didn't notice the "refugee" tsunami.

2. Because it applies to the Middle East.

3. Because EU politicians are acting like stooges and don't listen to the electorate.
 
Fine, follow your own directions if you think that:

1. with Assad gone, the remaining Arab christians will be secure.
2. with Assad gone, he will be replaced by a representative democracy in which all different political and religious factions will be properly represented and discuss their issues in a parliament or house of representatives, and this will magically work out.
3. opposing Assad somehow doesn't benefit ISIS

You'll fit in just well with the rest of the nutjobs.

And helping Assad will secure these results?
 
Number 1 (secure christians) and 3 (no benefit for ISIS) yes. I made no pretense of number 2.

Nr. 1. Only because they aren't enough of a threat to Assad yet
nr. 2. If there isn't any difference between ISIS and Assad for this point, then it doesn't belong in this list. Other than making clear that both are wrong.
Nr. 3. Western help for Assad will be a rallying cry for ISIS as yet another place where the West is meddling in the Middle East. Like it was in Iraq for Al Qaida and in Afghanistan. Helping Assad will also help ISIS.

Besides. The enemy of my enemy doesn't have to be my friend.
There is also an option of (trying to) stop ISIS and doing the same to Assad.
 
Nr 1. Christians have been living in Syria since shortly after Jesus basically, including under the elder Assad. After the US and UK managed to screw up Iraq in 2003, many christians fled to the then already demonized Syria.
Nr 2. There's a direct difference between ISIS and Assad. ISIS for example has strict sharia law, Assad not. Have you seen Assad cutting off limbs in public?
Nr 3. There ALREADY is western help in bombing ISIS. Your rallying cry already exists and it is doubtful it would increase much.

There is also an option of (trying to) stop ISIS and doing the same to Assad.
So let's say you achieve your idealistic goal of eliminating Assad? Then what?

The US overthrew Saddam, no one can rule Iraq, huge mess. NATO overthrew Gaddafi, huge mess and boat refugees all over Europe. Arab crowds overthrew Mubarak, first thing they do is vote in the Muslim Brotherhood. Various other "springs": not much better.

You can keep running with your head against the wall at full speed, yet you expect the outcome to change and the wall to break?

Some of us in Europe are getting fed up of the mess the US creates and which floats all the way over here.
 
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None of which changes the fact that Assad is an extremely nasty dictator, who shouldn't be supported by anyone.
 
I don't need to detail this much: it has been openly in the news that the US is critical of Russian support for Assad and is actively trying to thwart military aid to Assad, as well as passively by letting stooges within EU governments act on its behalf:

Google: "France attempts to block Russian military deployment in Syria"
Google: "Germany's Merkel sees need to cooperate with Russia on Syria"
Google: "Madness of Blockading Syria’s Regime"

(I can only provide url's after 15 posts)

Previously support for ISIS was behind the scenes, while publicly pretending to oppose it and pretending that less than 5 airstrikes per day (only a year or so revised to ~12) is going to make ISIS go away.

My in group/out group filter almost misfired, seeing this for a CT post until i realized you were pointing out the strategic quandary here.

Its an interesting point because it makes clear the broader geostrategic confusion now in place - we really have to see 2003 as a departure from what was the organizing principle of the ME for American planners.

That was a deliberate building up of a Sunni Axis with which to keep Iran quarantined. As many people have pointed out, removing Saddam was a huge strategic boon to Iran - whose own gravitational force was sure to bring Iraq closer to it's orbit. The Saddam regime was essentially an artificial blockage to what should be a part of Iran's mini-Monroe Doctrine.

So after 2003 the US upsets the order that it had fostered - the one that relied on stoking fears of Iran's enemies. Helped sell weapons, helped ensure continued access to resources in these nations - a host of benefits were accruing. But underneath it was building a slow steady reckoning that would one day have to happen between the two sides of this fault line that was encouraged. At times, the US has had to work closely with Iran to stabilize Iraq and to a lesser extent, Afghanistan. This worries American allies in the region who then shore up their support for local proxy forces - if their benefactor's allegiance can't be trusted and they are now in league with Iran - better to shore up your own influence where you can using your own resources.

So what's been happening since 2003 is a broader destabilizing wave - a collapsing of an old order and a replacement with the new. This will shake out over another decade at least if not longer. It doesn't seem like the Bush geostrategic vision really considered just how their wars would threaten the order that, until then, had been a cornerstone of US power in the world. Since they were to be over quickly, I believe they imagined they could retain all the benefits of their position - and just add way more benefits as the ME flowered into democracy from the benevolent application of Shock and Awe.

And this destabilizing wave gives you weird things like the US fighting ISIS but then not wanting the enemy of ISIS to be that strong - and now Turkey is looking to knock back the kurds and Iran is in the strongest geostrategic position it has enjoyed since 1979.

One thing is sure, the interests of regional players are likely to shape the next ME more than any outside power will. The old days are over.
 
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US government switches 180 degrees, now openly and publicly supports ISIS
I think the problem here is that you are assuming support for Assad is support for anti-ISIS.

The problem is, not all of Syria's miltiary is engaged against ISIS; much of it is concerned with fighting other rebels within the country who aren't ISIS, but still want Assad gone.

There was a guest on the Daily show a few months ago. Can't remember his name, but he was a journalist covering middle east affairs. He pointed out that while in theory Assad should be fighting ISIS tooth-and-nail, he is actually ignoring them.
 
Fine, follow your own directions if you think that:

1. with Assad gone, the remaining Arab christians will be secure.
2. with Assad gone, he will be replaced by a representative democracy in which all different political and religious factions will be properly represented and discuss their issues in a parliament or house of representatives, and this will magically work out.
3. opposing Assad somehow doesn't benefit ISIS

You'll fit in just well with the rest of the nutjobs.

In other words, connect the dots, actual evidence be damned.
 
Sunstealer probably had a less provocative way to get to the same point, posting this excellent bit of "WTF?" with respect to the strategic confusion of the moment in in the ME in the France/Syria thread, from the irrepressible Robert Fisk in The Independent:

Let me try to get this right. The Saudis are bombing Yemen because they fear the Shia Houthis are working for the Iranians. The Saudis are also bombing Isis in Iraq and the Isis in Syria. So are the United Arab Emirates. The Syrian government is bombing its enemies in Syria and the Iraqi government is also bombing its enemies in Iraq. America, France, Britain, Denmark, Holland, Australia and – believe it or not – Canada are bombing Isis in Syria and Isis in Iraq, partly on behalf of the Iraqi government (for which read Shia militias) but absolutely not on behalf of the Syrian government.

The Jordanians and Saudis and Bahrainis are also bombing Isis in Syria and Iraq because they don’t like them, but the Jordanians are bombing Isis even more than the Saudis after their pilot-prisoner was burned to death in a cage. The Egyptians are bombing parts of Libya because a group of Christian Egyptians had their heads chopped off by what might – notionally – be the same so-called Islamic State, as Isis refers to itself. The Iranians have acknowledged bombing Isis in Iraq – of which the Americans (but not the Iraqi government) take a rather dim view. And of course the Israelis have several times bombed Syrian government forces in Syria but not Isis (an interesting choice, we’d all agree). Chocks away!​
 
The Assad regime has killed three times as many civilians as IS has. Exactly how, in any way, shape or form, are they the good guys in this?

This conflict is a little bit more complex than a good side and a bad side.
 
The Assad regime has killed three times as many civilians as IS has. Exactly how, in any way, shape or form, are they the good guys in this?

This conflict is a little bit more complex than a good side and a bad side.

The ME defies binary understandings, another good phrasing about it was found in the masterful article by Anonymous on ISIS in the recent NYRB issue, and leading from a discussion on what drives these extremist groups arising in the last few decades:

Much of what ISIS has done clearly contradicts the moral intuitions and principles of many of its supporters. And we sens...that its supporters are at least partially aware of this contradiction. Again, we can list the different external groups that have provided funding and support to ISIS. But there are no logical connections of ideology, identity, or interests that should link Iran, the Taliban, and the Baathists to one another or to ISIS. Rather, each case suggests that institutions that are starkly divided in theology, politics, and culture perpetually improvise lethal and even self-defeating partnerships of convenience.

"perpetually improvised partnerships of convenience" - a good way to describe the shifting factional sands of a divided, and fundamentally insecure, ME.
 
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Nazi Germany fought the Polish Home Army, who were allied with the British, who fought the Nazis.

The Soviet Union opposed the home Army and refused to support them.

Does Roger Stonechurch think this means that the Soviet Union supported Nazi Germany?

As the Home Army itself said (paraphrased), the friend of your friend might not be your friend, and the enemy of your enemy might not be your friend either.

Opposing Assad does not mean supporting ISIS.

Syria is a broken mess, but that does not mean that failing to support one bloodthirsty party equals supporting another bloodthirsty party.
 
Im not sure he thinks quite so simply - I was willing to give the OP a benefit of the doubt and take the conversation in a more interesting direction, unearthing the kernel of truth in his provocative OP
 

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