US government switches 180 degrees, now openly and publicly supports ISIS

[WildCat]

There are people supporting Putin???

Have you not read any of the Ukraine thread? It's not over 1,000 posts because everyone agrees Putin is a raging asshat.

 

[Praktik]

Kleptocracy is just so hot right now

 

[Nihilianth]

Have you not read any of the Ukraine thread? It's not over 1,000 posts because everyone agrees Putin is a raging asshat.

Putin is the Great Unifier of American Politics these days.

At least the right wing quit supporting that jackass.

..and you know the worst of it?

We saved their asses in WWII

Old Europe just continues to disappoint

orly?

America during both World Wars is like that good-for-nothing douchebag who jumped into a fight on the side of his friends, after his friends have largely taken a beating, but dished out an even greater beating to the enemy; then that good-for-nothing friend unilaterally claims Ultimate Victory by himself after delivering a single punch to the already exhausted and bleeding last member of the enemy faction!

 

[Jrrarglblarg]

Putin is the Great Unifier of American Politics these days.

At least the right wing quit supporting that jackass.



orly?

America during both World Wars is like that good-for-nothing douchebag who jumped into a fight on the side of his friends, after his friends have largely taken a beating, but dished out an even greater beating to the enemy; then that good-for-nothing friend unilaterally claims Ultimate Victory by himself after delivering a single punch to the already exhausted and bleeding last member of the enemy faction!

What a uniquely uninformed version of history. You should write an alternate history novel with this premise.

 

[theprestige]

Putin is the Great Unifier of American Politics these days.

At least the right wing quit supporting that jackass.



orly?

America during both World Wars is like that good-for-nothing douchebag who jumped into a fight on the side of his friends, after his friends have largely taken a beating, but dished out an even greater beating to the enemy; then that good-for-nothing friend unilaterally claims Ultimate Victory by himself after delivering a single punch to the already exhausted and bleeding last member of the enemy faction!

North Africa, Italy, Normandy, lend-lease... Midway, the Philippines, Iwo Jima, Okinawa, Japan.

Yeah, America totally sat back and let everyone else do the fighting.

 

[Nihilianth]

What a uniquely uninformed version of history. You should write an alternate history novel with this premise.

North Africa, Italy, Normandy, lend-lease... Midway, the Philippines, Iwo Jima, Okinawa, Japan.

Yeah, America totally sat back and let everyone else do the fighting.

First WW: America did not enter until 1917. At that point, both sides were exhausted. It was America's fresh troops that finally toppled the already crumbling German lines.

Second WW: Russia did a HELL of a lot more fighting and contributed a lot more to Germany's defeat than all the rest of the allies combined. As for Japan, they had already largely exhausted themselves in China. They had no fuel left, to speak of. (Which was the driving force for them attacking Pearl Harbor!)

Yeah, Japan would have held on for a long time, if not for the US. But the Big Punch came with the atomic attacks in Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

 

[Andy_Ross]

First WW: America did not enter until 1917. At that point, both sides were exhausted. It was America's fresh troops that finally toppled the already crumbling German lines.

Second WW: Russia did a HELL of a lot more fighting and contributed a lot more to Germany's defeat than all the rest of the allies combined. As for Japan, they had already largely exhausted themselves in China. They had no fuel left, to speak of. (Which was the driving force for them attacking Pearl Harbor!)

Yeah, Japan would have held on for a long time, if not for the US. But the Big Punch came with the atomic attacks in Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

It's people writing ignorant toss like this that makes the internet do entertaining

 

[Nihilianth]

It's people writing ignorant toss like this that makes the internet do entertaining

You disagree? Link? Source? Argument? No? Ok then, this post is irrelevant.

ETA:

While the Nazis had a huge, well armed army, they were essentially hamstrung through a lack of material resources, particularly oil. It is a little known fact that the bulk of the German Army throughout the WW2 was infantry and horse-drawn artillery. Less than 20% their Army was mobile panzer or mechanized divisions. German infantry divisions employed many thousands of horses and many thousands of men to look after them. Also, the Kriegsmarine (German Navy) was for the most part impotent during the whole of WW2. If the lack of oil and coal didn't keep them in home port, the hammering they got from the Royal Navy every time they ventured out did. They couldn't even invade Britain; islands that were not well defended, and only a few kilometres across the channel. The Royal Navy and the RAF would have decimated them had they treid to go ahead with Operation Sealion.

The invasion of Russia (Operation Barbarossa) was mostly about the capture of the Baku Oilfields. There were other anticipated benefit of course; victory over Russia would mean that Germany could demobilise large numbers of servicemen to help ease the labour shortage in German industry. This would be further relieved by using forced labour of Russian workers. Defeating the Russians would also severely disadvantage the Allies, particularly Great Britain. But Hitler and his High Command knew that they would not be able to continue the war much past mid 1943 without oil. Albert Speer, the German Minister for Armaments and War Production even admitted to this during his post-war interrogation... "the need for oil certainly was a prime motive in the decision to invade"

What he wrote in that, is a damned good summation of the German situation during WW2. German losses on the EASTERN front, pretty much doomed Nazi Germany. In fact, it was the lack of action from the Western allies, that got Russia's panties all tied up in a bunch. While we were skirmishing in the desert of North Africa, the Russians were losing people by the millions, yet making headway against Germany. Granted, the allies were preparing for Operation Overlord. But I would argue that Russia's contributions against Nazi Germany far outstripped any of the other Western allies.

 

[Darth Rotor]

Now that we have tossers a-plenty in the thread, how about folks besides me being pleased to see that the Russians have arrived. The more the merrier.

I am guessing that they'll try their hand at bombing the bejesus out of ISIS, and anyone else who they decide is giving the red ass to Assad. The trick is to keep the communication channels open with the Western folks already in the area to avoid shooting each other. Man, this smells a bit like Cold War fun and games, but also a little bit different.

Should be interesting to see how it plays out, if somewhat bloody.

 

[Nihilianth]

Yeah, this **** is getting fer-realler seriously tho!

It's like even more drama-and-blood-filled than Game of Thrones.

It would be a pretty thrilling storyline, if real people were not being slaughtered and/or made homeless and/or even nationless.

In a weird way, I am also glad to see the Russians getting in on the fun. Literally, EVERYONE hates ISIS. The West can't do it, because it will piss people off that the West is bombing people again. Syria can't handle them, because they are stretched thin. And Iraq can't handle them, because they are corrupt as all get-out.

 

[Mader Levap]

I view it as classic evil vs evil trope.

On one side ISIS, that fun pseudocountry (if all goes well for them, they will lose "pseudo" part in few years) that has laws pretty similiar to one major USA ally in this region and with typical war atrocites. You know, executions, behadings, war rape, the usual.

On other side we have good uncle Assad gassing and killing everyone left and right. Civilians? What civilians?

Now el presidento Putin joins fray on Assad's side. Well, fitting ally I must say. Murderous dictatorship and biggest banana republic in the world go hand in hand indeed.

 

[Nihilianth]

Right, which means this is NOT our fight, and we need to stay out as much as possible. Maybe assist Europe with the refugee crisis, and help out in humanitarian ways as much as possible. But our guns should remain silent. There is nothing constructive we can possibly contribute militarily.

 

[metacristi]

I don't need to detail this much: it has been openly in the news that the US is critical of Russian support for Assad and is actively trying to thwart military aid to Assad, as well as passively by letting stooges within EU governments act on its behalf:

Google: "France attempts to block Russian military deployment in Syria"
Google: "Germany's Merkel sees need to cooperate with Russia on Syria"
Google: "Madness of Blockading Syria’s Regime"

(I can only provide url's after 15 posts)

Previously support for ISIS was behind the scenes, while publicly pretending to oppose it and pretending that less than 5 airstrikes per day (only a year or so revised to ~12) is going to make ISIS go away.

The basic mistake of the West here is the same, quite old in fact, obsession to export liberal democracy to the muslim world whilst doing basically nothing to strongly limit the influence of islam (as it is today) among the masses. Sadly the West learned nothing from the lessons of History which falsified many times now the central assumptions* behind its policies.

Actually it's not a bad thing to topple Saddam, Gaddafi, Assad and other dictators in the Islamic world. Overall they are not positive forces, little doubt.

Yet one has to add here measures to block the retrograde values of the 7th century to penetrate even the minds of the more moderate people, something which bring the same past again and again through the cracks of the old regimes (I'm afraid nothing less than a a transformation of islam is needed to succeed here).

If you are not able to act at the theological level support at least the more secular dictators in the Islamic world to keep in check the forces of the past. The lesser evil is always the best of options.



*there is an obvious, if not easy, way to 'graft' the western system of values on the Islamic infrastructure (with minimal changes at this level), bringing also stability on very long term, important returns toward the past being basically impossible

 

[Mader Levap]

Right, which means this is NOT our fight, and we need to stay out as much as possible. Maybe assist Europe with the refugee crisis, and help out in humanitarian ways as much as possible. But our guns should remain silent. There is nothing constructive we can possibly contribute militarily.

Yeeeah, sitting silently and doing nothing for four years worked for Syria oh so well. Why do you think there is refugee crisis in first place?

To today I think that Syrian intervention in style of Libya, if done sufficiently early, would make very different situation in Middle East, including non-existence of ISIS.

Of course, those rightwing scumbags that now criticize Obama for Bush's mess would criticize him for being warmonger or something.

 

[angrysoba]

Yeeeah, sitting silently and doing nothing for four years worked for Syria oh so well. Why do you think there is refugee crisis in first place?

To today I think that Syrian intervention in style of Libya, if done sufficiently early, would make very different situation in Middle East, including non-existence of ISIS.
Of course, those rightwing scumbags that now criticize Obama for Bush's mess would criticize him for being warmonger or something.

Re: the highlighted,

Why on Earth do you think that having a situation in Syria similar to that of Libya would have helped?

There is no effective government in Libya which is why the place has been over-run by jihadists.

The early intervention in Syria would have been to destablize, if not overthrow, Assad, leaving the place also open to jihadists.

As for the non-existence of ISIS, I cannot see how intervention in Syria would have prevented that given that ISIS have been around in one form or another for many years, particularly in Iraq which is where the leaders are from.

 

[newyorkguy]

To update author William Faulkner's Manifest Destiny solution for Vietnam, proclaimed when he was, regrettably, well into his dotage:

Iraq our 51st state; Syria 52nd. Here is our new frontier!

 

[angrysoba]

If the US and Europe were against Assad by opposing Russian support, then they are now supporting him again. By the OP's logic, the US position has done a 360.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...including-Cameron-accept-Assad-will-stay.html

 

[ponderingturtle]

Yeah, this **** is getting fer-realler seriously tho!

It's like even more drama-and-blood-filled than Game of Thrones.

It would be a pretty thrilling storyline, if real people were not being slaughtered and/or made homeless and/or even nationless.

In a weird way, I am also glad to see the Russians getting in on the fun. Literally, EVERYONE hates ISIS. The West can't do it, because it will piss people off that the West is bombing people again. Syria can't handle them, because they are stretched thin. And Iraq can't handle them, because they are corrupt as all get-out.

The problem is that sure no one really like ISIS but there are plenty of groups that are more worried about the other people opposing them. See Turkey being allied with ISIS because they are bombing the Kurds.

 

[Nihilianth]

nevermind.

 

[Roofgardener]

OoooooooKAY....

Can we pause for breath for a minute, and ask Roger Stonechurch

"In what way is the USA openly and publically supporting ISIS ?

Openly ?
Publicly ?

What are we talking about here ? Pro-ISIS marches ? ISIS fund-raisers at the White House ? Beheadathons on Fox TV? Formal speeches of support in Congress ?

I mean... REALLY ?