Continuation Part 18: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[acbytesla]

I think it was settled the cop Volturn (_sp?) went to great pains to locate the sale, to no avail. Obviously, the sale was made, unless shoplifted.

Really? Can you provide a citation? My understanding is that Volturno questioned Quintavalle and some of his clerks and that was it.

 

[acbytesla]

Plea bargaining is when a perp agrees to testify against fellow perps with the promise of a lesser sentence.

What you are talking about is a system brought in to a country (and Spain is similar) where everybody automatically pleads, "not guilty", as an incentive for the guilty to just get on with it with the carrot of a discounted sentence.

As is to be expected, like Ken Dine, you choose to tell only half the story.

No its not. Plea bargaining which is very common in the US is ususally a negotiation over charrges and sentencing in exchange for forgoing a trial. But it takse many forms, so your not totally wrong, just not totally right.

 

[Numbers]

Plea bargaining is when a perp agrees to testify against fellow perps with the promise of a lesser sentence.

What you are talking about is a system brought in to a country (and Spain is similar) where everybody automatically pleads, "not guilty", as an incentive for the guilty to just get on with it with the carrot of a discounted sentence.

As is to be expected, like Ken Dine, you choose to tell only half the story.

The positive aspect of your misstatements in the above post is that one can rebut them by merely providing a definition of "plea bargain". Here is one such definition (with commentary):

A plea bargain is a negotiated agreement between a criminal defendant and a prosecutor in which the defendant agrees to plead "guilty" or "no contest" to some crimes, along with possible conditions, such as attending anger management classes, in return for reduction of the severity of the charges, dismissal of some of the charges, or some other benefit to the defendant. A defendant must uphold his or her end of the deal, such as pleading guilty on a particular date, cooperating in the investigation of another offense, or testifying against a co-defendant, or the plea bargain may be revoked.

Plea bargaining helps save the time and expense of trials by allowing the prosecutor to obtain guilty pleas in cases that might otherwise go to trial. The judge must approve the plea bargain before accepting the plea. Critics of plea bargaining argue that it may be used to coerce confessions to crimes the defendant didn't commit, and that it results in dangerous offenders being set free too early.

Source: http://definitions.uslegal.com/p/plea-bargain/

Note that in my post that you reference I did not state that the patteggiamento was the exact equivalent of the US plea bargain. What I stated was:

The patteggiamento is indeed the closest Italian equivalent of the US plea bargain; it is indeed a negotiated conviction. {Italics added for emphasis.}

However, the patteggiamento procedure (CPP Article 444) does provide a benefit for the defendant, just as a plea bargain may, in that the financial or imprisonment penalty imposed is reduced by a factor of one-third compared to the sentence that would otherwise be imposed for the same circumstances in a regular trial (giudizio).

I shall repeat my earlier statement that your posts, Vixen, are full of ignorant claims and false statements. Your posts and the truth appear to be distant strangers.

 

[JREF2010]

Plea bargaining is when a perp agrees to testify against fellow perps with the promise of a lesser sentence.

What you are talking about is a system brought in to a country (and Spain is similar) where everybody automatically pleads, "not guilty", as an incentive for the guilty to just get on with it with the carrot of a discounted sentence.

As is to be expected, like Ken Dine, you choose to tell only half the story.

Yes, and the Fast Track is more like an embarrassment to the legal system and a insult to the Kerchers.

 

[Grinder]

I note you've omitted the "inconvenient" parts of the cleaners' testimony. Also, very devious saying "previous summer" when you mean the same summer that year.

Don't check on whether Raf's cleaning lady on Nov. 5th of 2007 actually worked at the Conad store. Don't do it.

 

[Grinder]

Hey Vixen,

It has been contended here that the cottage was cleaned thoroughly just before the murder. Since that would be a great thing for the prosecution and PGP, can you explain why the prosecution never brought up this stunning revelation?

 

[Grinder]

Here, Vixen backing for your contention about the receipts or actually the till. This is by Stewarthome the PGP reporter that told it like it was. I found at the time of the trial to be the best reporter of all.

Marc Quintavalle

The next witness was the highlight of the day. This was Marc Quintavalle, the owner of the small grocery store located on Via Garibaldi, the street that Solliceto lived on. Comment: his testimony was very precise, almost too precise for someone who recalls a long-ago incident from memory, but here goes…

On November 2nd he was heading back to his grocery store after lunch. He parked his car, and noticed there were carabinieri, police, etc. on Via della Pergola. He walked past them all, stopped to get a coffee at the bar on the corner, and then headed back to work. He was told at this time there was a murder.

It was not until many days later that he was told that Sollecito, a frequent customer in his grocery store, had been arrested with his girlfriend for the murder. After some time, he had remembered the day of the murder because he encountered the police and carabinieri cars several days after.Then it hit him what had happened that morning.

He said he arrived at his shop at 7:45am to open the security doors to be open for business. His two cashiers and helpers (two women) get there at 7:30am and begin to get ready for customers before opening time.

He said as he was opening the security gate on the store, a girl was standing at the door with him waiting for the store to open. He remembers that she had a hat on, jeans, a scarf and a grey-white jacket. But most of all he remembers that she had blue, really blue eyes. He noticed because her skin was very pale.

He opened the store door and said “buon giorno” but she did not say anything in response, and she headed to the part of the store [second image at top here] where they stock cleaning products, soap, towels, and also cups, coffee, and miscellaneous household items. The cashier is also located there.

He paid her no attention, but he did see her eventually leave and head down the street in the direction of the piazza that connects to Via della Pergola. Since he was not at the cash register he did not serve her and he could not say what she bought, and he did not think to ask the cashier at that time .

Many days afterwards, he saw a picture of Amanda Knox in the paper and said to himself, “OMG that is her, that is the girl that was at my store that morning”. Having seen her various times previously in the store, he was sure that it was Knox. He confirmed that it was some months later that he went to the police to tell them what he had witnessed the morning after the murder.

The courtroom was on edge when the prosecutor asked Quintavalle to identify the person he saw that morning by looking at a picture.

He finally looked directly at Amanda in the courtroom, staring at her in the eye only a few feet away and stated, “era lei, era Knox…” - ”It was her, it was Knox, she was the person I saw that morning”.

Comments: this was quite a climax of a scene. A direct eye witness testifying, without any doubt in his mind, that in effect Knox was lying about not getting up until around 10am on that morning.

Quintavalle had asked his cashiers if they remembered her or what she had bought that morning, but they did not remember anything. Quintavalle stated that detergent bleach is sold in his store for 1.09 euro per bottle and he carries only one kind (ACE), and they are all 1.09 per bottle.

Comment: if the prosecution introduces a till receipt for a 1.09 euro item sold at approximately 8:00am on November 2nd this would be very telling. So far such a receipt has not been introduced. The Police sequestered the till receipts, but have not officially released the findings. A possible problem is that many places don’t even ring up the items on the register to save the taxes and half probably go missing anyway. But overall, this was quite damning testimony.

The defense attempted to discredit Quintavalle, noting that it was all so long ago and how could anyone say in such detail who was there with any certainty? They also drilled him for supposedly violating a gag order, giving interviews for money, appearing on “Porta a porta” and so on.

Comment: that essentially washed away. I must admit he was so certain, and gave so much detail of what happened that morning after so much time had passed, it seemed like a feat of superhuman memory. But Quintavalle prides himself on his excellent memory, and now his statement is in the record.

http://www.truejustice.org/ee/index.php?/tjmk/comments/trial_report_from_the_courtroom_on_testimony/

Many may distrust the site but this report is aces. StewartHome told it like it was and there was no reason that the PGP would make up the receipts being sequestered.

 

[Bill Williams]

Not an assumption. Confirmed in two courts of law. Time will tell if the latest shower can successfully repudiate the facts found at various merits hearings.

You did not succumb to ad hominem, so I'll give you that.

Also acquitted at two courts of law. Indeed, the Italian system affords the final say-so to Cassazione, and we've yet to hear the final motivations report.

However, as for the motivations reports from the two convicting courts, there is no readily available listing of lies Amanda and Raffaele were supposed to have told. That's why I mentioned the 13 separate lies claimed by Harry Rag/The Machine who apparently, had to assemble his own list because the courts were not helping his version of the guilter PR lobby.

I've got the list if you want to see it. Thirteen lies claimed by TM/HR. It will surprise you, really, because they are nearly all "reaches" as we say in this neck of the woods.

Or as others have said - they are lies told by people like yourself and HR/TM when trying to vilify two people they do not know.

 

[Bill Williams]

Hey Vixen,

It has been contended here that the cottage was cleaned thoroughly just before the murder. Since that would be a great thing for the prosecution and PGP, can you explain why the prosecution never brought up this stunning revelation?

You see, this is the hidden time-bomb i anyone's reasoning that t is suspicious that Knox's DNA was found in her own home, particularly the bathroom she shared with the victim.

It assumes that there was a prior clean-up, one that left the cottage forensicly sterile, so that anything deposited by Knox would then necessarily be tied to the murder.

Look at Massei's stellar logic. He defends not testing the presumed semen stain, because the victim had had an active sex life, and semen cannot be time stamped.

The for some inexplicable reason, Massei forgets that logic to say that Knox's "biological material" is mixed with Meredith's blood in the bathroom. We know how the blood got there - the murderer left it there. Why, then, Knox's biological material it was dropped on means she's the killer is what was wrong with this case from the beginning.

 

[Grinder]

You see, this is the hidden time-bomb i anyone's reasoning that t is suspicious that Knox's DNA was found in her own home, particularly the bathroom she shared with the victim.

It assumes that there was a prior clean-up, one that left the cottage forensicly sterile, so that anything deposited by Knox would then necessarily be tied to the murder.

Look at Massei's stellar logic. He defends not testing the presumed semen stain, because the victim had had an active sex life, and semen cannot be time stamped.

The for some inexplicable reason, Massei forgets that logic to say that Knox's "biological material" is mixed with Meredith's blood in the bathroom. We know how the blood got there - the murderer left it there. Why, then, Knox's biological material it was dropped on means she's the killer is what was wrong with this case from the beginning.

Perhaps you missed that one of the PIPs made the contention that the cottage had been cleaned thoroughly shortly before the murder. But it wouldn't be nice to nit-pick and ask for proof of this clean-up.

 

[anglolawyer]

Here, Vixen backing for your contention about the receipts or actually the till. This is by Stewarthome the PGP reporter that told it like it was. I found at the time of the trial to be the best reporter of all.

Marc Quintavalle

The next witness was the highlight of the day. This was Marc Quintavalle, the owner of the small grocery store located on Via Garibaldi, the street that Solliceto lived on. Comment: his testimony was very precise, almost too precise for someone who recalls a long-ago incident from memory, but here goes…

On November 2nd he was heading back to his grocery store after lunch. He parked his car, and noticed there were carabinieri, police, etc. on Via della Pergola. He walked past them all, stopped to get a coffee at the bar on the corner, and then headed back to work. He was told at this time there was a murder.

It was not until many days later that he was told that Sollecito, a frequent customer in his grocery store, had been arrested with his girlfriend for the murder. After some time, he had remembered the day of the murder because he encountered the police and carabinieri cars several days after.Then it hit him what had happened that morning.

He said he arrived at his shop at 7:45am to open the security doors to be open for business. His two cashiers and helpers (two women) get there at 7:30am and begin to get ready for customers before opening time.

He said as he was opening the security gate on the store, a girl was standing at the door with him waiting for the store to open. He remembers that she had a hat on, jeans, a scarf and a grey-white jacket. But most of all he remembers that she had blue, really blue eyes. He noticed because her skin was very pale.

He opened the store door and said “buon giorno” but she did not say anything in response, and she headed to the part of the store [second image at top here] where they stock cleaning products, soap, towels, and also cups, coffee, and miscellaneous household items. The cashier is also located there.

He paid her no attention, but he did see her eventually leave and head down the street in the direction of the piazza that connects to Via della Pergola. Since he was not at the cash register he did not serve her and he could not say what she bought, and he did not think to ask the cashier at that time .

Many days afterwards, he saw a picture of Amanda Knox in the paper and said to himself, “OMG that is her, that is the girl that was at my store that morning”. Having seen her various times previously in the store, he was sure that it was Knox. He confirmed that it was some months later that he went to the police to tell them what he had witnessed the morning after the murder.

The courtroom was on edge when the prosecutor asked Quintavalle to identify the person he saw that morning by looking at a picture.

He finally looked directly at Amanda in the courtroom, staring at her in the eye only a few feet away and stated, “era lei, era Knox…” - ”It was her, it was Knox, she was the person I saw that morning”.

Comments: this was quite a climax of a scene. A direct eye witness testifying, without any doubt in his mind, that in effect Knox was lying about not getting up until around 10am on that morning.

Quintavalle had asked his cashiers if they remembered her or what she had bought that morning, but they did not remember anything. Quintavalle stated that detergent bleach is sold in his store for 1.09 euro per bottle and he carries only one kind (ACE), and they are all 1.09 per bottle.

Comment: if the prosecution introduces a till receipt for a 1.09 euro item sold at approximately 8:00am on November 2nd this would be very telling. So far such a receipt has not been introduced. The Police sequestered the till receipts, but have not officially released the findings. A possible problem is that many places don’t even ring up the items on the register to save the taxes and half probably go missing anyway. But overall, this was quite damning testimony.

The defense attempted to discredit Quintavalle, noting that it was all so long ago and how could anyone say in such detail who was there with any certainty? They also drilled him for supposedly violating a gag order, giving interviews for money, appearing on “Porta a porta” and so on.

Comment: that essentially washed away. I must admit he was so certain, and gave so much detail of what happened that morning after so much time had passed, it seemed like a feat of superhuman memory. But Quintavalle prides himself on his excellent memory, and now his statement is in the record.

http://www.truejustice.org/ee/index.php?/tjmk/comments/trial_report_from_the_courtroom_on_testimony/

Many may distrust the site but this report is aces. StewartHome told it like it was and there was no reason that the PGP would make up the receipts being sequestered.

Richard Owen blows this whole tale out of the water. If memory serves, his till receipts were timed at 8:30 and 9:15 (and they were for bleach, not unidentifiable purchases) so the defence should have called him to bust this witness. Or they could just produce his report, itself conclusive evidence that journalists never peddle lies told by bent cops.

 

[Grinder]

Richard Owen blows this whole tale out of the water. If memory serves, his till receipts were timed at 8:30 and 9:15 (and they were for bleach, not unidentifiable purchases) so the defence should have called him to bust this witness. Or they could just produce his report, itself conclusive evidence that journalists never peddle lies told by bent cops.

Perhaps you missed the salient point that the PLE did in fact sequester the cash register records of Q's store. Vixen was correct but the fact, as pointed out by ace reporter SH2000, that nothing of the receipts was ever introduced is a very very strong indication that they found nothing. Not withstanding the PGP fallback that Massei and Mignini were just being nice, it is a clear indication that nothing was found.

But Vixen was right, the cash register info was seized.

Oh and good morning

 

[anglolawyer]

Perhaps you missed the salient point that the PLE did in fact sequester the cash register records of Q's store. Vixen was correct but the fact, as pointed out by ace reporter SH2000, that nothing of the receipts was ever introduced is a very very strong indication that they found nothing. Not withstanding the PGP fallback that Massei and Mignini were just being nice, it is a clear indication that nothing was found.

But Vixen was right, the cash register info was seized.

Oh and good morning

Good morning to you too.

In view of your key point above (that you seem to think I missed) it should be apparent to any reasonable person that there were no receipts for, if there had been, it would have been easier simply to produce them than to cart away the cash register. It follows that Owen was peddling office gossip as fact and that his reports are accordingky not a substitute for evidence, as Vixen claimed.

 

[Numbers]

Good morning to you too.

In view of your key point above (that you seem to think I missed) it should be apparent to any reasonable person that there were no receipts for, if there had been, it would have been easier simply to produce them than to cart away the cash register. It follows that Owen was peddling office gossip as fact and that his reports are accordingky not a substitute for evidence, as Vixen claimed.

If the register had been seized and searched, assuming the Italian authorities (specifically PM Mignini) followed the formalities required by Italian procedural law, CPP Article 244 paragraph 1 and Article 247 paragraph 2, there would be a document issued by said authorities containing the "reasoned decree" authorizing such seizure and search. The reasoned decree would be in the case file.

However, since no evidence from the register was introduced at trial, the point is moot. The topic may entertain some here, as we await the Marasca CSC panel motivation report.

 

[Kauffer]

Plea bargaining is when a perp agrees to testify against fellow perps with the promise of a lesser sentence.
What you are talking about is a system brought in to a country (and Spain is similar) where everybody automatically pleads, "not guilty", as an incentive for the guilty to just get on with it with the carrot of a discounted sentence.

As is to be expected, like Ken Dine, you choose to tell only half the story.

No. This is not the definition of the term. It is one possible aspect.

 

[MichaelB]

The problem with Knox's site is that it doesn't prompt my Chrome browser to do the translation as the transcript at the 'Guilter' site had done.

Also, the Knox case doesn't tell you which attorney is asking questions, just that it's a question, for example, this is where Mignini chimes in to tell her what she originally said she had for dinner that night:

MIGNINI is asking the questions in this part of her testimony:

Clearly, Nov 12th 2007 was her first contact with the police!

You can't make this stuff up, what a hoot!

The site isn't Amanda Knox's. It says quite clearly on the front page who it belongs to as well as the top left or middle if you're using an Ipad.

I know having the transcripts printed onto pages is convenient for translating with chrome but there's no guarantee they're even accurate on Ergon's fake wiki. I wouldn't trust them at all.

The IA site only provides the original Italian downloadable PDF's so you know they're legit and the PDF's are much better for searching specific words.

But, whatever works for you.....

 

[Matthew Best]

Legally, you can use any name you like, but for legal documents, such as passports or driving licence, you need to get your deed poll (statutory declaration).

I needed a bank account in my stage name (back when I was playing in a band and getting cheques as a result) so I just sent my driving licence off to the DVLA letting them know I'd changed my name. They sent me back a new driving licence in my stage name, I opened a bank account using that as ID, then sent the driving licence back to the DVLA saying I'd changed the name back again. No problem. Now I have bank accounts in two different names.

 

[carbonjam72]

Why would they go to great pains to locate a sale when they had timed, dated receipts?

That a sale of bleach was made to somebody or other (let's assume there is evidence for that although I would like to see it) is not the same thing at all as a sale to Knox or Sollecito. The bleach receipts were said to have been found in Sollecito's apartment. That is the evidence in which you have claimed to believe along with the idea that it was not used because, well, they don't use everything, do they.

Let's just hasten to add that in addition to a "bleach receipt" not existing, it is one more idiotic meme of the police and Mignini to claim such a fictional document would have any relevance.

There was no bleach clean-up, nor would one be scientifically possible, so as to account for the absence of evidence against anyone but Rudy Guede.

The footprints revealed by luminol, in addition to only Rudy's footprints made in wet blood, show there was no "bleach clean-up", nor could any "bleach clean-up" selectively clean-up only Rudy's DNA, only Rudy's fingerprints in wet blood, Rudy's palm print, etc.

The meme of a "clean-up" is meant to counter the bald absence of any proof of anyone but Guede at the crime scene, and for whom there is vast quantities of such physical evidence for only Rudy Guede.

Just as the "stage break-in", is the Italian police's idiotic meme to explain away the obvious conclusion that the break-in was not staged and simply committed by Rudy as part of his normal burglary procedure, these are idiotic digressions, that the Italian police apparently feel the Italian media is idiotic enough to report, and the Italian public is sufficiently idiotic to believe.

That such foolishness was reported at all is a tragedy. That such idiocy continues to be bantered around amongst the guilter coven of lunatics, is yet one more argument in favor of China's approach to "re-education camps".

Bleach receipts are a non-starter, because they're irrelevant, and the obvious fabrication of Quintavale and the cub reporter, both of whom belong in jail for their actions in this case.

 

[Grinder]

Good morning to you too.

In view of your key point above (that you seem to think I missed) it should be apparent to any reasonable person that there were no receipts for, if there had been, it would have been easier simply to produce them than to cart away the cash register. It follows that Owen was peddling office gossip as fact and that his reports are accordingky not a substitute for evidence, as Vixen claimed.

Owen Schmoen - of course there were no paper receipts, this was another point of Vixen's and she was nit-picked because she couldn't find a source, but there it was.

 

[Grinder]

The site isn't Amanda Knox's. It says quite clearly on the front page who it belongs to as well as the top left or middle if you're using an Ipad.

I know having the transcripts printed onto pages is convenient for translating with chrome but there's no guarantee they're even accurate on Ergon's fake wiki. I wouldn't trust them at all.

The IA site only provides the original Italian downloadable PDF's so you know they're legit and the PDF's are much better for searching specific words.

But, whatever works for you.....

Yes that's a problem. I think the summaries are more likely to mislead.

Thanks as always for your efforts. Do you all have access to everything? Specifically do you have the information that would show if the cash register was sequestered and when? Did the PLE provide all their notes about the case? Does anybody even know when a person first contacted or was contacted by the PLE?

Obviously none of this matters, but for some putting a jigsaw puzzle is a challenge and for others a waste of time. I'm not just interested in what really happened but when and what was known to the defense.