Treating Other People With Respect

[TeapotCavalry]

I agree you can treat people politely and still offend them. However, I'm not sure I do agree that you can treat someone respectfully and offend them. At least, not intentionally. There are always unforeseen cultural differences and whatnot.

I think this is what is comes down to. You have no idea who takes offense at what, even more so when you're in a culturally mixed environment. Especially in today's social media climate where outrage culture is turned up to the max. If someone takes offense at what you say doesn't necessarily make you disrespectful or rude. That's the whole thing with offense. It's taken, not given. And yes there are legit reason to take offense, but then again there are less than legit and kinda absurd reasons people take offense at.

My point is respectfulness, courtesy and politeness don't translate well into being politically correct.


ETA:

More like argument from authority against argumentum ad populum.

A dictionary entry is not a populous. It is a small group's interpretation of a population's understanding of language, taken as an authority.

Arguably, a wikipedia entry might be closer to the mark, since it has a wider field of (potential) editors.

But as you yourself noted,

Dictionaries are set by what large groups of people understand words to mean.

Dictionary is written by how large groups of people understand and use the word.
It's not like linguists dictate the meaning of the word (to a degree they might comment and suggest on the correct usage depending on the rules of the language), what is in the dictionary is how it's traditionally, formally and colloquially been used.

It kind of is argument from authority, but the authority is from the population.

It's odd to complain about argument from dictionary and then counter it with argument from popularity, is all I'm saying.

 

[Lorentz]

I am sure you can find all kinds of racial epithets if you wanted. I know a american politician got in trouble for using one incorrectly. He used Macaca a traditional french epithet for blacks meaning monkey to describe someone from the Indian sub continent.

I'm unsure if you took the point I was trying to make. There are plenty of words that can be used as racial, gendered, or ableist slurs in every language.

We have movements that fight racial, gender-based or ableist discrimination.
What we don't have is movements that try to ban the individual WORDS. There are no words that are the Dutch equivalents of the C-word, or the N-word. I think that every single such word has been spoken on Dutch daytime television. Why? Because the exact words don't matter, it's the context and intent that matter.

Attacking words to combat discrimination is like fighting bacon to combat carnivorism. The pig's still dead, even if it makes you feel better and the bacon inedible.

 

[Upchurch]

That's the whole thing with offense. It's taken, not given.

I disagree. Offense can be intentionally delivered, even if politely.

My point is respectfulness, courtesy and politeness don't translate well into being politically correct.

I'm starting to think that there really isn't such a thing as political correctness, based on sir drinks-a-lot's definition. It's a label used as a straw man in lieu of an actual argument. The fact that it is, apparently, only applicable to one side is a red flag.

 

[sir drinks-a-lot]

That suggests that political correctness is not an action that one does, but a label that others ascribe to an action. In other words, no act is inherently politically correct.

Can't it be both? And can't there be gray areas where people will disagree on whether certain actions are or aren't PC?

So what is it called when conservatives excessively calculate to not offend or disadvantage a particular group of people in society? Because that happens.

I don't think there is a term for it.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Yup.
I can be respectful, courteous and considerate without being politically correct. I can also be disrespectful, rude and inconsiderate and be politically correct. The logical conclusion to draw here is that political correctness is not the same as being respectful, courteous and considerate. Trying to conflate the two seems weird. Why do it?

This would be much more helpful with examples.

 

[TeapotCavalry]

I disagree. Offense can be intentionally delivered, even if politely.

And whether that offends you is entirely up to you. You can't force someone to take offense.
A psychologist would ask "Does that offend you. If so, why?" (not you specifically, the general you)

I'm starting to think that there really isn't such a thing as political correctness, based on sir drinks-a-lot's definition.

I typed "political correctness" into google search.
Apparently this is so popular term, google has it's own definition pop up at the top:
"po·lit·i·cal cor·rect·ness
noun
noun: political correctness; noun: political correctitude
the avoidance, often considered as taken to extremes, of forms of expression or action that are perceived to exclude, marginalize, or insult groups of people who are socially disadvantaged or discriminated against."

What makes you think there's no political correctness?

It's a label used as a straw man in lieu of an actual argument.

Well, maybe, just like anything. Haven't witnessed such behavior myself.

The fact that it is, apparently, only applicable to one side is a red flag.

One "side"? Side of what?

 

[TeapotCavalry]

Yup.
I can be respectful, courteous and considerate without being politically correct. I can also be disrespectful, rude and inconsiderate and be politically correct. The logical conclusion to draw here is that political correctness is not the same as being respectful, courteous and considerate. Trying to conflate the two seems weird. Why do it?

This would be much more helpful with examples.

1. Call someone the wrong pronoun without having any previous information how they identify themselves as. You're politically incorrect, not rude.

2. Be rude to someone, but use the correct pronouns and all the acceptable social justice newspeak.

"Excuse me, miss, could I have the time?"
"I'm not a miss. How rude of you!"
"Oh I'm terribly sorry, missus"
"I'm not missus either!"
"...mister?"
"I identify as non-binary"

If you think this is bad fiction, you haven't spent enough time with the political correctness crowd.

 

[Upchurch]

I typed "political correctness" into google search.
Apparently this is so popular term, google has it's own definition pop up at the top:
"po·lit·i·cal cor·rect·ness
noun
noun: political correctness; noun: political correctitude
the avoidance, often considered as taken to extremes, of forms of expression or action that are perceived to exclude, marginalize, or insult groups of people who are socially disadvantaged or discriminated against."

What makes you think there's no political correctness?

I'm basing my reply on what sir drinks-a-lot said.

But, what separates that from politeness or courtesy?

One "side"? Side of what?

One side of the liberal/conservative spectrum:

I'd also include that they are liberal beliefs, and that there is a lot of group and identity politics involved.

I would also point out that that your definition above is just as applicable to Fox News' war on the War on Christmas and their perspective of the socially disadvantaged and discriminated-against Christians. Is there presumed* avoidance of "Happy Holidays" also politically correct? If not, why not?



* which, of course, they don't. they had christmas ornaments with "happy holidays" written on them.

 

[Upchurch]

1. Call someone the wrong pronoun without having any previous information how they identify themselves as. You're politically incorrect, not rude.

Says who?

 

[ponderingturtle]

1. Call someone the wrong pronoun without having any previous information how they identify themselves as. You're politically incorrect, not rude.

2. Be rude to someone, but use the correct pronouns and all the acceptable social justice newspeak.

"Excuse me, miss, could I have the time?"
"I'm not a miss. How rude of you!"
"Oh I'm terribly sorry, missus"
"I'm not missus either!"
"...mister?"
"I identify as non-binary"

If you think this is bad fiction, you haven't spent enough time with the political correctness crowd.

So is refusing to use someones preferred pronouns after being made aware of it a disrespectful act? That as an example isn't PC being out of control that is someone looking to take offense.

Now is referring to Catlyn Jenner as a thing respectful or not? Clearly it is not PC, but it must be perfectly OK with you as referring to her as a woman is more of the PC garbage you hate.

 

[Checkmite]

Arguably, a wikipedia entry might be closer to the mark, since it has a wider field of (potential) editors.

I'm not sure that follows. A Wikipedia entry might have a larger field of potential editors but in a practical sense, it might easily have fewer editors than a typical dictionary entry.

 

[TeapotCavalry]

I'm basing my reply on what sir drinks-a-lot said.

Okay, but apart from the liberal-conservative distinction, how is wiki definition (which is what sir drinks-a-lot is using) markedly different from google's definition?

wiki: "ordinarily pejorative term used to criticize language, actions, or policies seen as being excessively calculated to not offend or disadvantage any particular group of people in society."​

google: "the avoidance, often considered as taken to extremes, of forms of expression or action that are perceived to exclude, marginalize, or insult groups of people who are socially disadvantaged or discriminated against."​

But, what separates that from politeness or courtesy?

I think I've made that clear already. It's the fact that these words mean different things. Both in dictionary and in colloquial usage. Their meanings simply aren't interchangeable.

One side of the liberal/conservative spectrum:

​

I would also point out that that your definition above is just as applicable to Fox News' war on the War on Christmas and their perspective of the socially disadvantaged and discriminated-against Christians. Is there presumed* avoidance of "Happy Holidays" also politically correct? If not, why not?



* which, of course, they don't. they had christmas ornaments with "happy holidays" written on them.

I personally don't think political correctness has much to do with liberal/conservative dichotomy. I'd rather put it under authoritarianism/libertarianism.

Says who?

Says me. Who are you to disagree?

 

[TeapotCavalry]

So is refusing to use someones preferred pronouns after being made aware of it a disrespectful act? That as an example isn't PC being out of control that is someone looking to take offense.

Now is referring to Catlyn Jenner as a thing respectful or not? Clearly it is not PC, but it must be perfectly OK with you as referring to her as a woman is more of the PC garbage you hate.

What?

Perhaps you'd kindly read my previous posts.

 

[ponderingturtle]

What?

Perhaps you'd kindly read my previous posts.

The point is that no one is actually defending your straw PC.

 

[TeapotCavalry]

The point is that no one is actually defending your straw PC.

Then the problem is that you and I have totally different understanding what political correctness means, because that example was not straw. People get offended that strangers (ie people with no information about their gender identification) don't use their preferred pronouns.

 

[theprestige]

from a quick googling:

conforming to a belief that language and practices which could offend political sensibilities (as in matters of sex or race) should be eliminated

How is that markedly different than "treating people with respect" or "courtesy"?

Because unlike 'respect' and 'courtesy', 'political sensibility' is not a reasonable domain for causing or redressing grievance.

To the extent that matters of respect and courtesy are discussed under the heading 'political correctness', the heading is wrong, and should be avoided.

If a Marxist says that you have offended his political sensibilities by talking about social issues without using the terminology of Class Struggle, the appropriate response is *not* "I'm sorry that I have failed to treat you with courtesy and respect. I will correct my error and do better in the future". Rather, the correct response is, "this is a perfect example of PC gone too far. And also bollocks."

 

[Upchurch]

If a Marxist says that you have offended his political sensibilities by talking about social issues without using the terminology of Class Struggle, the appropriate response is *not* "I'm sorry that I have failed to treat you with courtesy and respect. I will correct my error and do better in the future". Rather, the correct response is, "this is a perfect example of PC gone too far. And also bollocks."

And this is why I'm really starting to consider political correctness to be a straw man. Has that ever happened?

eta: for that matter what political sensibilities does this scenario offend?

"Excuse me, miss, could I have the time?"
"I'm not a miss. How rude of you!"
"Oh I'm terribly sorry, missus"
"I'm not missus either!"
"...mister?"
"I identify as non-binary"

 

[theprestige]

eta: for that matter what political sensibilities does this scenario offend?

The political sensibility that says that eliminating binary gendered speech from common use is a pressing matter of social justice, and that it is not only appropriate but necessary to take personal offense at anyone who has not yet internalized this value.

 

[Upchurch]

The political sensibility that says that eliminating binary gendered speech from common use is a pressing matter of social justice, and that it is not only appropriate but necessary to take personal offense at anyone who has not yet internalized this value.

Your definition appears to belie your claim.

 

[The Greater Fool]

Treating folks with respect <> respecting those folks.