Treating Other People With Respect

[Newtons Bit]

Yep that is why African American is PC and Negro is fine for everyone else.

I am always amused when watching TV and a news anchor refers to a black person of non-American heritage/citizenship as an African-American...

 

[Lorentz]

Many people believe being treated with respect is a basic human right.

With all due respect, I consider that belief to be complete and utter bollocks.

That it is essentially what separates free societies from repressive societies.

People are more respectful to each other in New York than they are in Pyongyang? Interesting hypothesis, but is there any evidence to support it?

 

[sir drinks-a-lot]

I started imagining a world in which we replaced the phrase “politically correct” wherever we could with “treating other people with respect”, and it made me smile.

Sure, but that's not what the phrase "politically correct" means, so why do that? To suggest that people who use the phrase "politically correct" as a slur are somehow against treating other people with respect is just downright silly. Political correctness is a sort of antithesis to critical thinking, sort of an Orwellian groupthink.

 

[Lorentz]

At what point do we need to stop making up new words to replace the former ones that have been misused in a derogatory fashion? It seems to make more sense to me to distinguish between the derogatory misuse of the word and its actual meaning. When used appropriately, I don't think that we need to make it an issue, and I don't think that we need to make up new terminologies as a "fix" because it doesn't actually solve the problem -- it defers it for approximately as long as it takes for the new term to be considered derogatory by the same process. It's never the word itself which is derogatory anyway -- it's the attitude, the tone of voice, and the improper associations.

I think you make a very good point there and one I've often wondered about myself. However, being European, my main question is what it is about North American culture that makes banning words seem like a sensble measure to combat discriminatory attitudes.

As far as I've been able to find, ONLY North American culture does this. There are no banned words in Dutch, German, or, to my knowledge, in French, or Spanish.

In Dutch, the most common expletive used by both genders is the equivalent of the C-word. It has far lesser shock value than our equivalent of "dammit". I have the strong impression that this has not hindered Dutch women in their quest to achieve full gender equality.

Words matter. They matter in sentences, within a context. I think that outside of those sentences and that context, they do not.

YMMV.

 

[Upchurch]

Sure, but that's not what the phrase "politically correct" means, so why do that?

That's interesting. What do you think the term means?



ETA: from a quick googling:

conforming to a belief that language and practices which could offend political sensibilities (as in matters of sex or race) should be eliminated

How is that markedly different than "treating people with respect" or "courtesy"?

 

[Lorentz]

Stephen Fry? That limp-d*** pa*** boy? Who cares what a fa**** thinks?

And Richard Dawkins? That godless heathen?

Who the eff cares what a bunch of ho*** and heathens think and believe?

(*Insert emoticon indicating sarcasm, and emphasizing that these comments are not meant literally.* After all, wouldn't want to offend any retards in our midst! *Repeat disclaimer for that previous sentence.*)

I am seriously offended! Your intent is noted, but intent is not magic!

 

[TeapotCavalry]

You want respect, you earn it.

+1

No, I disagree, in every possible way.

There is no cause for disrespecting anybody before they give you a reason to. Every single human being on the planet is entitled to a baseline level of respect. If you want to go above that level, then yes, you have to earn it. But the baseline is not zero.

Tony Abbott, for example, gets zero respect from me. But that's because he earned it. If I had never heard of him and had no idea who he was, I would still treat him with politeness, courtesy and with consideration for his wishes. In other words, I would treat him a baseline level of respect - same as everybody else.

Perhaps respect does not directly and sufficiently translate to courtesy, politeness and consideration, though. The latter three I grant to every human being as a baseline. Respect is something that people earn, not something that is automatically granted to them simply for existing.

 

[TeapotCavalry]

Argument by dictionary?

By the way, here are a few other people who appear to be using the word "respect" in the same way I do:

Argumentum ad populum?

 

[Upchurch]

Argumentum ad populum?

Well, language is, by its nature, subjective to popular understanding. Dictionaries are set by what large groups of people understand words to mean.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Sure, but that's not what the phrase "politically correct" means, so why do that? To suggest that people who use the phrase "politically correct" as a slur are somehow against treating other people with respect is just downright silly. Political correctness is a sort of antithesis to critical thinking, sort of an Orwellian groupthink.

Who is right to be offended offended by being wished merry christmass or those who are offended by wishing people happy holidays?

 

[TeapotCavalry]

That's interesting. What do you think the term means?



ETA: from a quick googling:

conforming to a belief that language and practices which could offend political sensibilities (as in matters of sex or race) should be eliminated

How is that markedly different than "treating people with respect" or "courtesy"?

You can treat people politely (or respectfully) and still offend them, would you agree?

 

[ponderingturtle]

I think you make a very good point there and one I've often wondered about myself. However, being European, my main question is what it is about North American culture that makes banning words seem like a sensble measure to combat discriminatory attitudes.

As far as I've been able to find, ONLY North American culture does this. There are no banned words in Dutch, German, or, to my knowledge, in French, or Spanish.

I am sure you can find all kinds of racial epithets if you wanted. I know a american politician got in trouble for using one incorrectly. He used Macaca a traditional french epithet for blacks meaning monkey to describe someone from the Indian sub continent.

 

[TeapotCavalry]

Well, language is, by its nature, subjective to popular understanding. Dictionaries are set by what large groups of people understand words to mean.

(my highlighting)

Precisely.

So, it's ad populum argument against ad populum argument?

 

[Lorentz]

Speaking of political correctness, the recent American uproar about a Dutch newspaper using the N-word in a headline (a quote from an anti-racist book), counts as Political Correctness gone mad, in my opinion.

Dutch newspaper uses n-word

While we understand that the U.S. has taboo words and this is one of them, it was a DUTCH article written for Dutch people, reviewing a book by Ta-Nehisi Coates. The article was not racist in any way, shape or form. Outrage is spent on the word, utterly disregarding the content.

I have no respect for this approach. None. All I've read from my fellow countrypersons* indicates I'm part of a large majority in that view.

<sub>*"countrypersons" used intentionally** to show respect to Dutch women in a way that will be understood here.

**Yes, I'm taking the mickey</sub>

 

[TeapotCavalry]

Sure, but that's not what the phrase "politically correct" means, so why do that? To suggest that people who use the phrase "politically correct" as a slur are somehow against treating other people with respect is just downright silly. Political correctness is a sort of antithesis to critical thinking, sort of an Orwellian groupthink.

Yup.
I can be respectful, courteous and considerate without being politically correct. I can also be disrespectful, rude and inconsiderate and be politically correct. The logical conclusion to draw here is that political correctness is not the same as being respectful, courteous and considerate. Trying to conflate the two seems weird. Why do it?

 

[sir drinks-a-lot]

conforming to a belief that language and practices which could offend political sensibilities (as in matters of sex or race) should be eliminated
How is that markedly different than "treating people with respect" or "courtesy"?

It's not. But I don't really think that's what PC means. According to that definition, making fun of Donald Trump's hairpiece would be politically incorrect. And I don't think too many people would agree with that as an example of being politically incorrect.

That's interesting. What do you think the term means?

Tough to define precisely, but wikipedia gets off to a better start than the above definition by saying "ordinarily pejorative term used to criticize language, actions, or policies seen as being excessively calculated to not offend or disadvantage any particular group of people in society."

This includes that it is a pejorative, and also that it is seen as excessive. I'd also include that they are liberal beliefs, and that there is a lot of group and identity politics involved.

 

[TeapotCavalry]

Speaking of political correctness, the recent American uproar about a Dutch newspaper using the N-word in a headline (a quote from an anti-racist book), counts as Political Correctness gone mad, in my opinion.

Dutch newspaper uses n-word

While we understand that the U.S. has taboo words and this is one of them, it was a DUTCH article written for Dutch people, reviewing a book by Ta-Nehisi Coates. The article was not racist in any way, shape or form. Outrage is spent on the word, utterly disregarding the content.

I have no respect for this approach. None. All I've read from my fellow countrypersons* indicates I'm part of a large majority in that view.

<sub>*"countrypersons" used intentionally** to show respect to Dutch women in a way that will be understood here.

**Yes, I'm taking the mickey</sub>

Obligatory Louis CK's skit (NSFW)

 

[Upchurch]

You can treat people politely (or respectfully) and still offend them, would you agree?

I agree you can treat people politely and still offend them. However, I'm not sure I do agree that you can treat someone respectfully and offend them. At least, not intentionally. There are always unforeseen cultural differences and whatnot.

 

[Upchurch]

This includes that it is a pejorative, and also that it is seen as excessive.

That suggests that political correctness is not an action that one does, but a label that others ascribe to an action. In other words, no act is inherently politically correct.

I'd also include that they are liberal beliefs, and that there is a lot of group and identity politics involved.

So what is it called when conservatives excessively calculate to not offend or disadvantage a particular group of people in society? Because that happens.

 

[Upchurch]

So, it's ad populum argument against ad populum argument?

More like argument from authority against argumentum ad populum.

A dictionary entry is not a populous. It is a small group's interpretation of a population's understanding of language, taken as an authority.

Arguably, a wikipedia entry might be closer to the mark, since it has a wider field of (potential) editors.