Heaven Makes No Sense

[tsig]

That was one part of my point, yes. But I also wanted to point out that a lot of atheists - especially those who do not have a personal lived experience as a Christian - do not understand what Christians actually believe about some things. They assume that Christians believe in a particular thing - a personified heaven with clouds and harps and stuff, for example, and prayer being about asking God for stuff, for another - and never actually get to the point of considering what it is that they actually believe.

I have only a limited experience with one kind of evangelical Pentecostal Christianity, but what I remember of the theology frequently differs wildly from what some lifelong atheists believe Christians believe. Different sects may come closer, perhaps, but that's outside my experience.

And you do understand what Christians actually believe while the rest of us poor unenlightened atheists are ignorant?

I was a Christian and spent two years in a Catholic seminary so perhaps I may have some vague inkling of what Christians believe about heaven.

Perhaps your limited experience with one kind of evangelical Pentecostal Christianity is limiting your views.

 

[baron]

The religious believe in whatever contrivances are necessary to provide an adequate buffer between common sense and their beliefs. Essentially they make it up as they go along, knowing that if they brick themselves into a corner they have a get-out-of-jail-free card in the pronouncement that 'God can do anything on account of him being God." In this case, God can ensure everybody in Heaven is happy because he's God and God can do anything. If doctrine states that in Heaven, 1+1=3, this isn't an issue either. God created everything, even 1s and 3s, so if he wants to make 1+1=3 then he can do that too. See how easy it is?

 

[stanfr]

The religious believe in whatever contrivances are necessary to provide an adequate buffer between common sense and their beliefs. Essentially they make it up as they go along, knowing that if they brick themselves into a corner they have a get-out-of-jail-free card in the pronouncement that 'God can do anything on account of him being God." In this case, God can ensure everybody in Heaven is happy because he's God and God can do anything. If doctrine states that in Heaven, 1+1=3, this isn't an issue either. God created everything, even 1s and 3s, so if he wants to make 1+1=3 then he can do that too. See how easy it is?

-1² = 1²(4-5)² = (6-5)²4-5 = 6-5
4 = 6
4/2 = 6/2
2=3
Therefore, 1 + 1 = 3

 

[arthwollipot]

And you do understand what Christians actually believe while the rest of us poor unenlightened atheists are ignorant?

I was a Christian and spent two years in a Catholic seminary so perhaps I may have some vague inkling of what Christians believe about heaven.

Perhaps your limited experience with one kind of evangelical Pentecostal Christianity is limiting your views.

Perhaps you missed my point.

You can't say what "Christians" believe. There is no one thing that "Christians" believe. There are going to be as many different things that Christians believe as there are different Christian churches. The Catholic idea of heaven is going to be quite different from the Pentecostal. The Baptist different from the Jehovah's Witness. The Mormon... well... different from everything.

And if you were not a lifelong atheist, with no lived experience with Christianity, then my remarks were not about you. I thought that this was pretty clear from what I said.

 

[Leumas]

Perhaps you missed my point.

You can't say what "Christians" believe. There is no one thing that "Christians" believe. There are going to be as many different things that Christians believe as there are different Christian churches. The Catholic idea of heaven is going to be quite different from the Pentecostal. The Baptist different from the Jehovah's Witness. The Mormon... well... different from everything.

And if you were not a lifelong atheist, with no lived experience with Christianity, then my remarks were not about you. I thought that this was pretty clear from what I said.

Is this a feature of Christianity that no one can ever pin it down on anything?

Much like a slithering wriggling worm with no head and no tail and even if you cut it in half the two parts go burrowing down into the ground to become two full grown worms a few days later?

• 1 Corinthians 9:20-23 To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God's law but am under Christ's law), so as to win those not having the law. To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all people so that by all possible means I might save some. I do all this for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings."

I think you are right... how else could Christianity have become the thousands of cults that now exist?

Right from day one even before the puff of clouds on which Jesus flew up to outer space has actually dissipated, Christians were starting to wriggle and wrangle and slither and fabricate and hallucinate stuff that caused strife and rifts and schisms in the original cult, if there ever was just one.

Even before the ink was dry on some of the fairy tales they fabricated some other Christians were already forging new tall tales to oppose and contradict the previous forgeries.

And it was not just a matter of wrangling and squabbling and cursing each other... some had the imperial power behind them to kill, torture and burn the other cultists along with their forgeries.

This book explains it all in pedagogical details.

• Jesus Wars: How Four Patriarchs, Three Queens, and Two Emperors Decided What Christians Would Believe for the Next 1,500 Years

Here are some more fairy tales fabricated by early Christians that might give more insight into what their ideas of Heaven were as opposed to the ideas of the official canon or the current ideas of modern day cultists.

• The Gospel Of Peter
• The Gospel Of Mary
• The Infancy Gospels
• The Gospel Of Judas
• The Gospel Of Thomas
• The Gospel Of The Nazarenes
• The Gospel Of The Ebionites
• The Gospel Of The Hebrews
• The Apocalypse Of Peter
• The Apocalypse Of Paul
• The Coptic Apocalypse Of Paul
• The Acts Of Peter And The Twelve
• The Acts Of Peter And Paul
• The Acts Of Paul And Thecla
• HECK a trillion acts..... Acts of Andrew, Acts of Barnabas, Acts of John, Acts of the Martyrs, Acts of Paul, Acts of Peter, Acts of Pilate, Acts of Philip. Acts of Thomas, Acts of Timothy, The Lost Chapter of the Acts of the Apostles

 

[P.J. Denyer]

Heaven will be a great place.

If I go to heaven I would create a better universe or a better Adam and Eve.

There would be NO more serpents in my Garden of Eden.

Hubris! Guess you won't be going after all!

 

[Filippo Lippi]

An eternity in the presence of the Thing that created suffering? No thanks.

 

[SpuriusMaximus]

Is this a feature of Christianity that no one can ever pin it down on anything?

It's a feature of every successful religion, or really any successful woo system, I would think. It has to be as malleable as silly putty (a god is the right one when he approves of everything you do, forgives everything you've ever done, but hates everyone you do, and totally won't ever forgive that guy who cut you off on the highway) and as hard to nail into a concrete claim as nailing Jello to a wall.

 

[arthwollipot]

The fact that there were so many different religions with different opinions on what is the "truth" was one of the main factors that caused me to stop going to church. It was less likely to me that only one of the thousands was right, than it was for all of them to be wrong.

 

[Swordfishtrombone]

Your dream brought to mind Tiger Lillies' take on what heaven is like:



Pretty miserable.

 

[Myriad]

In an eternal heaven, George R. R. Martin can write an infinite number of Game of Thrones (actually, Song of Ice and Fire) volumes, where each volume introduces 10 new sub-plots and resolves 2 old ones, and introduces 50 new characters and kills off 1 character. Yet eventually, every sub-plot is resolved and every character dies. Such are the peculiar mathematics of eternity.

Of course, that might be hell instead.

The strangeness and discomfort of most visions of heaven really underscore how much more sense it makes to posit that we evolved to successfully live and eventually die on the material earth.

 

[Leumas]

It's a feature of every successful religion, or really any successful woo system, I would think. It has to be as malleable as silly putty (a god is the right one when he approves of everything you do, forgives everything you've ever done, but hates everyone you do, and totally won't ever forgive that guy who cut you off on the highway) and as hard to nail into a concrete claim as nailing Jello to a wall.

Yes indeed... but it seems that Christianity is much more adept at this worm-like wriggling and writhing its way out of any embarrassment caused by the progressive closing of the gaps in which they keep shoving their sky daddy.

And of course this explains why it is the most able to ABSORB people like that old old movie called the Blob.

[imgw=400]https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/df/The_Blob_poster.jpg[/imgw]

 

[Leumas]

The fact that there were so many different religions with different opinions on what is the "truth" was one of the main factors that caused me to stop going to church. It was less likely to me that only one of the thousands was right, than it was for all of them to be wrong.

This is so illogical on so many levels!!

 

[steve s]

The fact that there were so many different religions with different opinions on what is the "truth" was one of the main factors that caused me to stop going to church. It was less likely to me that only one of the thousands was right, than it was for all of them to be wrong.

http://wp.production.patheos.com/bl...5/02/11007614_628927553920047_152492327_n.jpg


Steve S

 

[SpuriusMaximus]

Yes indeed... but it seems that Christianity is much more adept at this worm-like wriggling and writhing its way out of any embarrassment caused by the progressive closing of the gaps in which they keep shoving their sky daddy.

And of course this explains why it is the most able to ABSORB people like that old old movie called the Blob.

[imgw=400]https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/df/The_Blob_poster.jpg[/imgw]

Well, maybe Xianity did overdo the vagueness a bit, thus ending up with thousands of sects, but essentially any religion or woo survived by not presenting a fixed target that can be just nuked from orbit by science. Essentially to keep believing, probably the easiest way is to just get a good grip on the goalposts and run with them real quick. You HAVE to be able to say "no, we don't believe THAT" as one of the ways out, and promptly make up some other BS.

And, really, that applies to just about any religion, real or joke. I was just listening the other day to some Norse priest or such from Iceland explaining that they don't ACTUALLY believe in a grey bearded guy going around on an 8 legged horse. It's all some metaphor and such, see? And they don't actually sacrifice animals at their Blot (which incidentally actually means "blood.")

And I'm like, "you don't actually believe in allfather Odin, ye heathen? Why do you call yourself norse pagan, then?"

Edit: I'm telling ya, one of these days, we'll even be told that the Anglicans don't actually believe in the Queen. Mark my words

 

[Leumas]

Well, maybe Xianity did overdo the vagueness a bit, thus ending up with thousands of sects, but essentially any religion or woo survived by not presenting a fixed target that can be just nuked from orbit by science. Essentially to keep believing, probably the easiest way is to just get a good grip on the goalposts and run with them real quick. You HAVE to be able to say "no, we don't believe THAT" as one of the ways out, and promptly make up some other BS.

And, really, that applies to just about any religion, real or joke. I was just listening the other day to some Norse priest or such from Iceland explaining that they don't ACTUALLY believe in a grey bearded guy going around on an 8 legged horse. It's all some metaphor and such, see? And they don't actually sacrifice animals at their Blot (which incidentally actually means "blood.")

And I'm like, "you don't actually believe in allfather Odin, ye heathen? Why do you call yourself norse pagan, then?"

Edit: I'm telling ya, one of these days, we'll even be told that the Anglicans don't actually believe in the Queen. Mark my words

Exactly!!!

 

[Fellow Traveler]

Hey Heaven is a continual sexual experience. You don't worry about time when so engaged . My concern is: how could a caring person enjoy Heaven knowing so many earthly friends are in eternal torment. I think the bible was written in layers like an onion. Some guys would come up with something that sounded profound and then weave in some fairy tales to make it interesting. Then church officials got their shot at it; obeying and believing is paramount and they stressed it. Much of the balance is made up of obsequious things said to Kings and Emperors to show great admiration. Sort of like brown nosing at the office.

 

[SpuriusMaximus]

Hey Heaven is a continual sexual experience. You don't worry about time when so engaged . My concern is: how could a caring person enjoy Heaven knowing so many earthly friends are in eternal torment.

You seem to underestimate how nasty crackpots some of the early xian apologists were. You're not just supposed to know that your former heathen friends are in eternal pain, you're supposed to SEE them burn, and that is actually a PART of why heaven is so much fun. SRSLY.

 

[Nay_Sayer]

I'll stay here as long as there is work for me to do here. I'll leave when it's time for me to leave.

Is the work saving us poor heathens?

 

[arthwollipot]

You seem to underestimate how nasty crackpots some of the early xian apologists were. You're not just supposed to know that your former heathen friends are in eternal pain, you're supposed to SEE them burn, and that is actually a PART of why heaven is so much fun. SRSLY.

Why are you friends with them anyway? They're sinners - they deserve punishment. Punishing them is an expression of God's eternal love. Isn't that great?